4 ms·

Looks like you are in us. Drag them into small court by claiming $9999 in damages. They will have to send a human or pay. I guess if they just pay, you can do i

Looks like you are in us. Drag them into small court by claiming $9999 in damages. They will have to send a human or pay. I guess if they just pay, you can do it per product. Class action might be possible as well

criddell 4y ago
I haven’t looked at the TOS, but users are likely required to engage in binding arbitration. That’s not necessarily bad though.
- kouteiheika 4y ago
  > That’s not necessarily bad though. Indeed: https://www.shuchow.com/so-i-took-a-huge-corporation-to-arbitration/ https://www.shuchow.com/so-i-took-a-huge-corporation-to-arbi...
- rationalist 4y ago
  Wouldn't FB/Meta be required to actually send someone to court to tell the judge that the user "agreed" to binding arbitration first?
  - criddell 4y ago
    They would likely immediately file to dismiss based on the TOS. It would be an uphill battle to convince a judge that you shouldn’t go through arbitration first.
    - rationalist 4y ago
      How would someone convince the court that you never agreed to the TOS? For example, I created my account before there was a TOS, and FB used easily-bypassable ways to get users to agree to a TOS, and eventually they stopped asking me, leading me to believe they think I agreed. Without my wet signature on anything, how can they prove I agreed to something when they can just flip a bit and claim their records show I did? I guess the user would get a notice that FB/Meta filed something and that they could respond saying that's not true?
      - criddell 4y ago
        > they could respond saying that’s not true? Right. Keep in mind this is civil court so the standards of “proof” aren’t the same as criminal court. The judge only has to believe you more than them. It will be an uphill battle though because the judge probably doesn’t want to hear the case. They’re going to want you to try arbitration first.
      - TomSwirly 4y ago
        > How would someone convince the court that you never agreed to the TOS? If you live in the US, it turns out that EULA (which TOS are a subset of) are completely valid: https://www.canlii.org/en/commentary/doc/2006CanLIIDocs118#!fragment//BQCwhgziBcwMYgK4DsDWszIQewE4BUBTADwBdoByCgSgBpltTCIBFRQ3AT0otokLC4EbDtyp8BQkAGU8pAELcASgFEAMioBqAQQByAYRW1SYAEbRS2ONWpA https://www.canlii.org/en/commentary/doc/2006CanLIIDocs118#!... The argument that you provably never read the EULA is apparently no form of legal defense, which I personally feel shits upon the letter and the spirit of the law, but that's an unfortunate consequence of living in a society where business is the pinnacle of everything. Now I live in Europe and that sort of shit absolutely doesn't fly here - EULAs are not enforceable.
  - justinclift 4y ago
    Wouldn't something like this work? "I've repeatedly tried to organise arbitration, however Facebook is refusing to do so."

criddell 4y ago

I haven’t looked at the TOS, but users are likely required to engage in binding arbitration. That’s not necessarily bad though.

kouteiheika 4y ago
> That’s not necessarily bad though. Indeed: https://www.shuchow.com/so-i-took-a-huge-corporation-to-arbitration/ https://www.shuchow.com/so-i-took-a-huge-corporation-to-arbi...
rationalist 4y ago
Wouldn't FB/Meta be required to actually send someone to court to tell the judge that the user "agreed" to binding arbitration first?
- criddell 4y ago
  They would likely immediately file to dismiss based on the TOS. It would be an uphill battle to convince a judge that you shouldn’t go through arbitration first.
  - rationalist 4y ago
    How would someone convince the court that you never agreed to the TOS? For example, I created my account before there was a TOS, and FB used easily-bypassable ways to get users to agree to a TOS, and eventually they stopped asking me, leading me to believe they think I agreed. Without my wet signature on anything, how can they prove I agreed to something when they can just flip a bit and claim their records show I did? I guess the user would get a notice that FB/Meta filed something and that they could respond saying that's not true?
    - criddell 4y ago
      > they could respond saying that’s not true? Right. Keep in mind this is civil court so the standards of “proof” aren’t the same as criminal court. The judge only has to believe you more than them. It will be an uphill battle though because the judge probably doesn’t want to hear the case. They’re going to want you to try arbitration first.
    - TomSwirly 4y ago
      > How would someone convince the court that you never agreed to the TOS? If you live in the US, it turns out that EULA (which TOS are a subset of) are completely valid: https://www.canlii.org/en/commentary/doc/2006CanLIIDocs118#!fragment//BQCwhgziBcwMYgK4DsDWszIQewE4BUBTADwBdoByCgSgBpltTCIBFRQ3AT0otokLC4EbDtyp8BQkAGU8pAELcASgFEAMioBqAQQByAYRW1SYAEbRS2ONWpA https://www.canlii.org/en/commentary/doc/2006CanLIIDocs118#!... The argument that you provably never read the EULA is apparently no form of legal defense, which I personally feel shits upon the letter and the spirit of the law, but that's an unfortunate consequence of living in a society where business is the pinnacle of everything. Now I live in Europe and that sort of shit absolutely doesn't fly here - EULAs are not enforceable.
- justinclift 4y ago
  Wouldn't something like this work? "I've repeatedly tried to organise arbitration, however Facebook is refusing to do so."