8 ms·

I've seen this news of Toyoda's passing posted across various social media channels and it's incredible to see how many Toyota owners have thanked him posthumou

by gkanai 4y ago

I've seen this news of Toyoda's passing posted across various social media channels and it's incredible to see how many Toyota owners have thanked him posthumously. I remember that when Steve Jobs died. This seems similar in a sense.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
>This seems similar in a sense. They exist in very similar segments portions of their respective industries serving very similar customer demographics (in North America). Naturally there is going to be quite a bit of evolutionary convergence.
- neoromantique 4y ago
  Are there though? Toyota is never perceived as a luxury brand, it is associated with quality, reliability and maintainability. Something that you can hardly say about Apple.
  - thfuran 4y ago
    iPhones have a far longer service live than androids.
  - cruano 4y ago
    Something that you can hardly say about the industry*
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    They didn't distribute most of their luxury platforms worldwide. E.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century
    - skhr0680 4y ago
      Lexus entering Japan started the slow decline of Toyota-badged luxury sedans. The Alphard is still an upper-middle class status symbol, but the people who saw Toyota as a luxury brand bought their last Crown ten years ago and are fast approaching 80. I suspect that is also the reason for the unification of Toyota badges and the Hail Mary design of the new Crown.
    - scrlk 4y ago
      The Century is such a wonderfully understated car. The European equivalent would probably be something like a VW Phaeton with the W12 engine. This marketing video from Toyota on the 2nd gen Century is a good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1erJ1eVmLo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1erJ1eVmLo
  - Octoth0rpe 4y ago
    That's highly dependent upon which country you're in. In the United States, Toyota has a separate brand for their luxury offerings (Lexus), and so what you say is true. But in other countries, those nice Lexus cars are sold as Toyotas.
    - hotpotamus 4y ago
      Yes, I came to say that if I were to buy a luxury car, it would be a fancy Toyota AKA Lexus. I wonder if most people aren't aware of that? And Cadillac is just GM? It's hardly unusual in the American market - I believe it's been called badge engineering for at least as long as I've been alive.
      - neoromantique 4y ago
        There is a reason why Toyota separated their luxury segment into a different brand.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    Apple doesn't prioritize reliability because that's not what their subset of upper middle class consumers want in a phone. Toyota doesn't prioritize cost or feature/performance parity because that's not what their subset of upper middle class consumers want in a vehicle. They both make products that are about as high as you can go in their respective market segments without getting into pure luxury and conspicuous consumption type purchases and refuse to go down-market lest they sully their brand image. In both cases they lather it up with a pretext so buyers don't feel like they're indulging in a luxury purchase. In apple's case they tightly integrate the hardware and software to assure a homogeneous user experience. In Toyota's case they try and dominate the 3rd party rankings on reliability. Of course, when you compare to the "next best" think in their class, like a Google or Samsung flagship phone or a Honda Accord you'll find that the actual difference is razor thin and that not having any "value priced garbage products" is really what's doing the reputational heavy lifting. Not wading into value priced territory is also very useful to the great many of each brand's respective customers who are willing to pay a huge premium to not have to think about it. A Toyota product may be overpriced for it's features/performance but if you just want an A to B appliance in a particular form factor it will do so with minimal maintenance expense. You won't have to waste your precious brainpower thinking about an expensive 100k service or fiddling with some gimmick feature. And on the apple side of things their tight control over the hardware-software combo results in a pretty strong guarantee of a high minimum user experience. If you just want a "nice phone" and don't wanna think about software versions, various flavors of android OS and stuff like that you can simply buy whatever iphone is in your budget? Is it the nicest phone in your budget, no. But you didn't have to waste precious brain-power comparing all the various Android options. Basically they both charge a premium for products that "just work" and they refuse to get into market niches where they can't do that, much to the benefit of their brand image. The above applies to North America only. Toyota makes a more diverse set of stuff globally and Apple doesn't dominate the same buyer demographics globally.
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      I don't know if Apple prioritizes reliability in their phones, but that seems to be an outcome of whatever they do prioritize. My family's four iPhones are: 2 iPhone X (Nov 2017), 1 XS Max (Sept 2018), and 1 13 (Sept 2021, only bought in order to hand-down one of the X to our kid). Those phones are 5, 5, 4.5, and 1.5 years old. Each of the 3 older phones was bought used when the next phone generation was released. Across our ownership, I've replaced two screens and three batteries (two were needed and one was "while I'm replacing the screen, it's easy and would be needed soon"), all DIY. I doubt we'll replace any of these phones in the next 2 years. The iPhone 8 is still getting software updates to iOS 16, so I expect the X will keep getting updates for several more years.
  - insane_dreamer 4y ago
    In the US, Lexus is on par with Merc/BMW/Audi
    - neoromantique 4y ago
      There is a reason why Toyota separated their luxury segment into a different brand.
      - machinawhite 4y ago
        Yeah, marketing. They're top trim models sure but a Lexus IS300 in Japan is still just a Toyota Altezza with leather seats and a 2JZ
  - fomine3 4y ago
    Apple iPhone is not only luxury brand but also reliability brand.
  - insane_dreamer 4y ago
    I would say the first 2 qualities are definitely associated with Apple esp compared to other phones and laptops.
  - sva_ 4y ago
    That's one way of triggering HN.
  - _yb2s 4y ago
    I disagree. The main reason I buy Apple laptops is the physical reliability... they absolutely make low end (feature wise) models that still have top notch physical quality and longevity, including historically making super bare bones school/education targeted models. I know it's a premium model, but my 2010 Macbook Pro is still going strong with zero repairs other than two battery replacements that took about 5 minutes each, after over a decade of regular hard travel use. I think I'd be lucky to get 6 months from the average PC laptop with use like that. I'd argue that my iPhone SE2 is also a product that is very much a low end non-luxury phone, but with unparalleled physical build quality. I purchased it from a budget box store as part of a cheap prepaid cell phone plan- total ownership cost will be far less than the cheapest Android phones targeted at the 3rd world, if you consider how much longer it will likely last.
    - lukas099 4y ago
      It is also nice how long Apple continues to release security updates for their phones, which I believe is longer than any Android phone manufacturer.
      - filoleg 4y ago
        Yeah, they go quite a bit back when it comes to full iOS updates, and even further back when it comes to security updates.[0] The oldest iPhone that supports the most recent full iOS version update (iOS 16) is iPhone 8, which was released in 2017. And they released a security update for iOS 12 in August of 2022 that supports iPhone 5s (released in 2013). That would make it 5 years for full OS updates and 9 years for security updates. 0. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222
    - scrlk 4y ago
      > I know it's a premium model, but my 2010 Macbook Pro is still going strong with zero repairs other than two battery replacements that took about 5 minutes each, after over a decade of regular hard travel use. I think I'd be lucky to get 6 months from the average PC laptop with use like that. Tip: don't bother with consumer grade PC laptops if you are after longevity. Only buy "business grade" machines like Lenovo ThinkPads, Dell Latitudes, HP EliteBook/ZBooks.
  - triceratops 4y ago
    iPhones and Macbooks last a long time and get software updates way longer than comparable products.
ericalexander0 4y ago
It's no coincidence. Jobs was influenced by quality philosophers like Toyoda, Deming, etc. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kib6uXQsxBA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kib6uXQsxBA
- astrange 4y ago
  You could say Apple is basically an American copy of Sony. That's why he wore a uniform even if he couldn't get anyone else to do it.
dorfsmay 4y ago
> it's incredible to see From that statement, I'm guessing you've never owned a Camry?

by gkanai 4y ago

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

>This seems similar in a sense. They exist in very similar segments portions of their respective industries serving very similar customer demographics (in North America). Naturally there is going to be quite a bit of evolutionary convergence.

neoromantique 4y ago
Are there though? Toyota is never perceived as a luxury brand, it is associated with quality, reliability and maintainability. Something that you can hardly say about Apple.
- thfuran 4y ago
  iPhones have a far longer service live than androids.
- cruano 4y ago
  Something that you can hardly say about the industry*
- ethbr0 4y ago
  They didn't distribute most of their luxury platforms worldwide. E.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century
  - skhr0680 4y ago
    Lexus entering Japan started the slow decline of Toyota-badged luxury sedans. The Alphard is still an upper-middle class status symbol, but the people who saw Toyota as a luxury brand bought their last Crown ten years ago and are fast approaching 80. I suspect that is also the reason for the unification of Toyota badges and the Hail Mary design of the new Crown.
  - scrlk 4y ago
    The Century is such a wonderfully understated car. The European equivalent would probably be something like a VW Phaeton with the W12 engine. This marketing video from Toyota on the 2nd gen Century is a good summary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1erJ1eVmLo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1erJ1eVmLo
- Octoth0rpe 4y ago
  That's highly dependent upon which country you're in. In the United States, Toyota has a separate brand for their luxury offerings (Lexus), and so what you say is true. But in other countries, those nice Lexus cars are sold as Toyotas.
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    Yes, I came to say that if I were to buy a luxury car, it would be a fancy Toyota AKA Lexus. I wonder if most people aren't aware of that? And Cadillac is just GM? It's hardly unusual in the American market - I believe it's been called badge engineering for at least as long as I've been alive.
    - neoromantique 4y ago
      There is a reason why Toyota separated their luxury segment into a different brand.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Apple doesn't prioritize reliability because that's not what their subset of upper middle class consumers want in a phone. Toyota doesn't prioritize cost or feature/performance parity because that's not what their subset of upper middle class consumers want in a vehicle. They both make products that are about as high as you can go in their respective market segments without getting into pure luxury and conspicuous consumption type purchases and refuse to go down-market lest they sully their brand image. In both cases they lather it up with a pretext so buyers don't feel like they're indulging in a luxury purchase. In apple's case they tightly integrate the hardware and software to assure a homogeneous user experience. In Toyota's case they try and dominate the 3rd party rankings on reliability. Of course, when you compare to the "next best" think in their class, like a Google or Samsung flagship phone or a Honda Accord you'll find that the actual difference is razor thin and that not having any "value priced garbage products" is really what's doing the reputational heavy lifting. Not wading into value priced territory is also very useful to the great many of each brand's respective customers who are willing to pay a huge premium to not have to think about it. A Toyota product may be overpriced for it's features/performance but if you just want an A to B appliance in a particular form factor it will do so with minimal maintenance expense. You won't have to waste your precious brainpower thinking about an expensive 100k service or fiddling with some gimmick feature. And on the apple side of things their tight control over the hardware-software combo results in a pretty strong guarantee of a high minimum user experience. If you just want a "nice phone" and don't wanna think about software versions, various flavors of android OS and stuff like that you can simply buy whatever iphone is in your budget? Is it the nicest phone in your budget, no. But you didn't have to waste precious brain-power comparing all the various Android options. Basically they both charge a premium for products that "just work" and they refuse to get into market niches where they can't do that, much to the benefit of their brand image. The above applies to North America only. Toyota makes a more diverse set of stuff globally and Apple doesn't dominate the same buyer demographics globally.
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I don't know if Apple prioritizes reliability in their phones, but that seems to be an outcome of whatever they do prioritize. My family's four iPhones are: 2 iPhone X (Nov 2017), 1 XS Max (Sept 2018), and 1 13 (Sept 2021, only bought in order to hand-down one of the X to our kid). Those phones are 5, 5, 4.5, and 1.5 years old. Each of the 3 older phones was bought used when the next phone generation was released. Across our ownership, I've replaced two screens and three batteries (two were needed and one was "while I'm replacing the screen, it's easy and would be needed soon"), all DIY. I doubt we'll replace any of these phones in the next 2 years. The iPhone 8 is still getting software updates to iOS 16, so I expect the X will keep getting updates for several more years.
- insane_dreamer 4y ago
  In the US, Lexus is on par with Merc/BMW/Audi
  - neoromantique 4y ago
    There is a reason why Toyota separated their luxury segment into a different brand.
    - machinawhite 4y ago
      Yeah, marketing. They're top trim models sure but a Lexus IS300 in Japan is still just a Toyota Altezza with leather seats and a 2JZ
- fomine3 4y ago
  Apple iPhone is not only luxury brand but also reliability brand.
- insane_dreamer 4y ago
  I would say the first 2 qualities are definitely associated with Apple esp compared to other phones and laptops.
- sva_ 4y ago
  That's one way of triggering HN.
- _yb2s 4y ago
  I disagree. The main reason I buy Apple laptops is the physical reliability... they absolutely make low end (feature wise) models that still have top notch physical quality and longevity, including historically making super bare bones school/education targeted models. I know it's a premium model, but my 2010 Macbook Pro is still going strong with zero repairs other than two battery replacements that took about 5 minutes each, after over a decade of regular hard travel use. I think I'd be lucky to get 6 months from the average PC laptop with use like that. I'd argue that my iPhone SE2 is also a product that is very much a low end non-luxury phone, but with unparalleled physical build quality. I purchased it from a budget box store as part of a cheap prepaid cell phone plan- total ownership cost will be far less than the cheapest Android phones targeted at the 3rd world, if you consider how much longer it will likely last.
  - lukas099 4y ago
    It is also nice how long Apple continues to release security updates for their phones, which I believe is longer than any Android phone manufacturer.
    - filoleg 4y ago
      Yeah, they go quite a bit back when it comes to full iOS updates, and even further back when it comes to security updates.[0] The oldest iPhone that supports the most recent full iOS version update (iOS 16) is iPhone 8, which was released in 2017. And they released a security update for iOS 12 in August of 2022 that supports iPhone 5s (released in 2013). That would make it 5 years for full OS updates and 9 years for security updates. 0. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201222
  - scrlk 4y ago
    > I know it's a premium model, but my 2010 Macbook Pro is still going strong with zero repairs other than two battery replacements that took about 5 minutes each, after over a decade of regular hard travel use. I think I'd be lucky to get 6 months from the average PC laptop with use like that. Tip: don't bother with consumer grade PC laptops if you are after longevity. Only buy "business grade" machines like Lenovo ThinkPads, Dell Latitudes, HP EliteBook/ZBooks.
- triceratops 4y ago
  iPhones and Macbooks last a long time and get software updates way longer than comparable products.

ericalexander0 4y ago

It's no coincidence. Jobs was influenced by quality philosophers like Toyoda, Deming, etc. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kib6uXQsxBA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kib6uXQsxBA

astrange 4y ago
You could say Apple is basically an American copy of Sony. That's why he wore a uniform even if he couldn't get anyone else to do it.

dorfsmay 4y ago

> it's incredible to see From that statement, I'm guessing you've never owned a Camry?