5 ms·

I did a year at a large law firm straight out of law school, not because of any free lunches, but because the debt is enormous. https://hls.harvard.edu/sfs/fina

I did a year at a large law firm straight out of law school, not because of any free lunches, but because the debt is enormous. https://hls.harvard.edu/sfs/financial-aid/financial-aid-policy/cost-of-attendance/ https://hls.harvard.edu/sfs/financial-aid/financial-aid-poli... On top of that, the accession process for public interest is full of uncertainty. Law firms, as private entities, can structure their recruiting process however they like; and the common practice is for a 2L summer job to turn into a full-time offer. But federal agencies (and typically state agencies) are required to go through the government hiring process; and non-profits typically don't have the budgetary margin to make offers a year in advance. Even the DOJ Honors Program, specifically designed for recruiting directly from law schools, is only open to graduating law students; you can't compete as a 2L and then get a full-time offer at the end of your 2L summer. I applaud this student for writing about their experience, but at the end of this coming summer, when facing down the barrel of $300,000 in debt and no immediately apparent way to pay it, their perspective may change. If it does, it will likely be for far more compelling reasons than a Paul Weiss hoodie.

arethuza 4y ago
"the debt is enormous" Out of interest, how much of that is caused by the law degree being (as far as I understand it) a postgraduate degree in the US? Here in the UK you can just go straight to law school if you want without a first degree.
- dredmorbius 4y ago
  It has rather more to do with the degree bearing the string "Harvard". There are low-cost law schools in the US. What you'll find, however, is that big-name law firms, Supreme Court clerkships, and other prestigious (and well-compensated) opportunities tend not to hire from them. If you're looking to go into private practice or are targeting a less-ambitious role, or get lucky with a roll of the dice / spin of the wheel, they might work out fine. Searching for "low cost law school" will come up with various listings. The top options on this list appear to run about 1/20th the cost of Harvard (I'm presuming that the tuition figure is for a full three-year programme, not on a per-year basis, the text makes this ... less than clear). <https://affordableschools.net/the-10-most-affordable-law-schools-in-the-united-states/ https://affordableschools.net/the-10-most-affordable-law-sch...>
  - metaphor 4y ago
    > The top options on this list appear to run about 1/20th the cost of Harvard (I'm presuming that the tuition figure is for a full three-year programme, not on a per-year basis, the text makes this ... less than clear). "1/20th the cost of Harvard" is in the ballpark of what a super affordable undergraduate program at a US public university goes for. To be sure, your cite lists annual cost of tuition as clarified in Methodology section language. Their "average program cost" metric is also pretty meaningless; you either pay in-state or out-of-state rates---not some arbitrary arithmetic mean---so ~3x for a rough lower bound of what tuition alone will run you, and that assumes the unlikely scenario of no tuition increases during subsequent years of study.
    - dredmorbius 4y ago
      Thanks, I missed that on tuition reading a bit sloppily. There's also the mention that law school is not necessarily required to join the bar, as addressed in the FAQ "Do You Have to go to Law School in Order to Become a Lawyer?": To begin, 99 percent of lawyers who earn their license will have completed a law school program. This is for a very good reason: there are only four states in the United States that enable potential lawyers to sit for the bar exam without having completed law school. Those states are California, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington. In these states, less than one-quarter of the professionals without a law degree passed the bar exam and won the right to practice law. In fact, all four states are in the top 20 hardest bar exams, with California leading the pack at a pass rate of 54.3 percent. Arguably three of those are nontrivial states for the practice of law. Point remains however that $300k tuition is not strictly required to join the bar in the US, though it may offer a substantial selection advantage for prime opportunities.
      - arethuza 4y ago
        Do all practising lawyers in the US "join the bar"?
        bitwize 4y ago
        Yes, otherwise you are not licensed to practice law and to do so without a license is a crime.
- metaphor 4y ago
  > Out of interest, how much of that is caused by the law degree being (as far as I understand it) a postgraduate degree in the US? At face value, the sticker price of grad school will always be more expensive, however, UF[1], UNC Chapel Hill[2], UT Austin[3], etc. are just a few reputable public universities with relatively affordable law programs, in particular, for in-state residents with enough grit to skip on-campus housing. > Here in the UK you can just go straight to law school if you want without a first degree. Hasn't been a thing in the US for decades[4]. [1] https://www.law.ufl.edu/admissions/costs-and-financial-aid https://www.law.ufl.edu/admissions/costs-and-financial-aid [2] https://law.unc.edu/admissions/financing-your-legal-education/tuition-and-fees/ https://law.unc.edu/admissions/financing-your-legal-educatio... [3] https://law.utexas.edu/admissions/tuition-fees-and-expenses/ https://law.utexas.edu/admissions/tuition-fees-and-expenses/ [4] https://asklib.law.harvard.edu/faq/115308 https://asklib.law.harvard.edu/faq/115308
  - arethuza 4y ago
    "Hasn't been a thing in the US for decades" Why? Just seems like a barrier to entry to me for no good reason?
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      The higher the monetary barrier to entry to a profession the greater the rents that accrue to those who can afford to get in. Requiring seven years of college means that very few people who were not born to the bourgeoisie or higher can join, which makes the profession more pleasant for lawyers, who have always been bourgeois. Making a first undergraduate degree mandatory means your colleagues will be more well rounded, interesting people, which makes the profession more pleasant for lawyers. Seeing a trend here?
      - ghaff 4y ago
        As it is, there isn't much of a general barrier to getting a law degree/any law degree to the point where the typical lawyer isn't really making a lot of money. The big bucks are going to white shoe law firms in big cities to lawyers who went to top schools (including Harvard) and landed federal court clerkships. While there are respectable salaries among the others, there are also a lot of lawyers doing real estate law in shopping malls that are just getting by.
- ownagefool 4y ago
  You can do a law degree in the UK, but it doesn't give you the right to practice without undertaking additional courses and training. Becoming a solicitor in the UK is a 7 year ordeal. I assume becoming a barrister is similar.
  - arethuza 4y ago
    Actually it can be five years if you already have a degree - which used to be the "traditional" approach but seems to have been replaced by people doing a first degree in law. NB Given the multiple legal systems in the UK there will be a lot of variations - e.g. to become an advocate here in Scotland (our equivalent of barristers) I think you could do that in 4 years: 2 year LLB, 1 year training in a law firm and then one year devilling (where you are an Advocate's Devil!). Edit: Might be out of date - its a while since my wife did her 2 year LLB and then qualified and became an advocate.
    - pbhjpbhj 4y ago
      8 looks more than 7 to me ;o) 3 year (or more) undergrad, plus 5 years becoming a lawyer. Or, in Scotland, typically 4 years undergrad (it can be 3y), plus 4 years. Or the 7 years the parent comment said.
      - arethuza 4y ago
        Has it changed in Scotland - used to be get a LLB (2 or 4 years) then 1 year Postgrad and then two years training? Edit: Relatively few people (I think) do a first degree and then immediately go to law school - most people I knew who did that were changing to law after some other career and had a degree in something unrelated.
chasd00 4y ago
From what I’ve heard if you get accepted to Harvard then the endowment ensures your financial situation does not factor into your decision to attend. Does that only apply to undergraduates? Or is that just a myth entirely?
- foobarian 4y ago
  Maybe it's the case for undergraduate degrees i.e. Harvard College but the law school is definitely not part of it

arethuza 4y ago

"the debt is enormous" Out of interest, how much of that is caused by the law degree being (as far as I understand it) a postgraduate degree in the US? Here in the UK you can just go straight to law school if you want without a first degree.

dredmorbius 4y ago
It has rather more to do with the degree bearing the string "Harvard". There are low-cost law schools in the US. What you'll find, however, is that big-name law firms, Supreme Court clerkships, and other prestigious (and well-compensated) opportunities tend not to hire from them. If you're looking to go into private practice or are targeting a less-ambitious role, or get lucky with a roll of the dice / spin of the wheel, they might work out fine. Searching for "low cost law school" will come up with various listings. The top options on this list appear to run about 1/20th the cost of Harvard (I'm presuming that the tuition figure is for a full three-year programme, not on a per-year basis, the text makes this ... less than clear). <https://affordableschools.net/the-10-most-affordable-law-schools-in-the-united-states/ https://affordableschools.net/the-10-most-affordable-law-sch...>
- metaphor 4y ago
  > The top options on this list appear to run about 1/20th the cost of Harvard (I'm presuming that the tuition figure is for a full three-year programme, not on a per-year basis, the text makes this ... less than clear). "1/20th the cost of Harvard" is in the ballpark of what a super affordable undergraduate program at a US public university goes for. To be sure, your cite lists annual cost of tuition as clarified in Methodology section language. Their "average program cost" metric is also pretty meaningless; you either pay in-state or out-of-state rates---not some arbitrary arithmetic mean---so ~3x for a rough lower bound of what tuition alone will run you, and that assumes the unlikely scenario of no tuition increases during subsequent years of study.
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    Thanks, I missed that on tuition reading a bit sloppily. There's also the mention that law school is not necessarily required to join the bar, as addressed in the FAQ "Do You Have to go to Law School in Order to Become a Lawyer?": To begin, 99 percent of lawyers who earn their license will have completed a law school program. This is for a very good reason: there are only four states in the United States that enable potential lawyers to sit for the bar exam without having completed law school. Those states are California, Vermont, Virginia, and Washington. In these states, less than one-quarter of the professionals without a law degree passed the bar exam and won the right to practice law. In fact, all four states are in the top 20 hardest bar exams, with California leading the pack at a pass rate of 54.3 percent. Arguably three of those are nontrivial states for the practice of law. Point remains however that $300k tuition is not strictly required to join the bar in the US, though it may offer a substantial selection advantage for prime opportunities.
    - arethuza 4y ago
      Do all practising lawyers in the US "join the bar"?
      - bitwize 4y ago
        Yes, otherwise you are not licensed to practice law and to do so without a license is a crime.
metaphor 4y ago
> Out of interest, how much of that is caused by the law degree being (as far as I understand it) a postgraduate degree in the US? At face value, the sticker price of grad school will always be more expensive, however, UF[1], UNC Chapel Hill[2], UT Austin[3], etc. are just a few reputable public universities with relatively affordable law programs, in particular, for in-state residents with enough grit to skip on-campus housing. > Here in the UK you can just go straight to law school if you want without a first degree. Hasn't been a thing in the US for decades[4]. [1] https://www.law.ufl.edu/admissions/costs-and-financial-aid https://www.law.ufl.edu/admissions/costs-and-financial-aid [2] https://law.unc.edu/admissions/financing-your-legal-education/tuition-and-fees/ https://law.unc.edu/admissions/financing-your-legal-educatio... [3] https://law.utexas.edu/admissions/tuition-fees-and-expenses/ https://law.utexas.edu/admissions/tuition-fees-and-expenses/ [4] https://asklib.law.harvard.edu/faq/115308 https://asklib.law.harvard.edu/faq/115308
- arethuza 4y ago
  "Hasn't been a thing in the US for decades" Why? Just seems like a barrier to entry to me for no good reason?
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    The higher the monetary barrier to entry to a profession the greater the rents that accrue to those who can afford to get in. Requiring seven years of college means that very few people who were not born to the bourgeoisie or higher can join, which makes the profession more pleasant for lawyers, who have always been bourgeois. Making a first undergraduate degree mandatory means your colleagues will be more well rounded, interesting people, which makes the profession more pleasant for lawyers. Seeing a trend here?
    - ghaff 4y ago
      As it is, there isn't much of a general barrier to getting a law degree/any law degree to the point where the typical lawyer isn't really making a lot of money. The big bucks are going to white shoe law firms in big cities to lawyers who went to top schools (including Harvard) and landed federal court clerkships. While there are respectable salaries among the others, there are also a lot of lawyers doing real estate law in shopping malls that are just getting by.
ownagefool 4y ago
You can do a law degree in the UK, but it doesn't give you the right to practice without undertaking additional courses and training. Becoming a solicitor in the UK is a 7 year ordeal. I assume becoming a barrister is similar.
- arethuza 4y ago
  Actually it can be five years if you already have a degree - which used to be the "traditional" approach but seems to have been replaced by people doing a first degree in law. NB Given the multiple legal systems in the UK there will be a lot of variations - e.g. to become an advocate here in Scotland (our equivalent of barristers) I think you could do that in 4 years: 2 year LLB, 1 year training in a law firm and then one year devilling (where you are an Advocate's Devil!). Edit: Might be out of date - its a while since my wife did her 2 year LLB and then qualified and became an advocate.
  - pbhjpbhj 4y ago
    8 looks more than 7 to me ;o) 3 year (or more) undergrad, plus 5 years becoming a lawyer. Or, in Scotland, typically 4 years undergrad (it can be 3y), plus 4 years. Or the 7 years the parent comment said.
    - arethuza 4y ago
      Has it changed in Scotland - used to be get a LLB (2 or 4 years) then 1 year Postgrad and then two years training? Edit: Relatively few people (I think) do a first degree and then immediately go to law school - most people I knew who did that were changing to law after some other career and had a degree in something unrelated.

chasd00 4y ago

From what I’ve heard if you get accepted to Harvard then the endowment ensures your financial situation does not factor into your decision to attend. Does that only apply to undergraduates? Or is that just a myth entirely?

foobarian 4y ago
Maybe it's the case for undergraduate degrees i.e. Harvard College but the law school is definitely not part of it