10 ms·

A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections

182 points by awsation 4y ago

sph 4y ago
First it was Russia meddling with elections (Trump, Brexit), now it's a team led by an ex Israeli special forces guy — which reminds me a bit of the NSO Group story. You know what is terrifying? That upon learning about Russia having a major hand in Western election, nothing concrete was done. In Britain we learned the whole Brexit movement was paid for, and manipulated by Russian money (and it was arguably a crucial milestone mentioned in the infamous Foundations of Geopolitics book), yet there was a little noise on printed media that went nowhere. No one investigated, no top politician jailed, just business as usual. I'm not even sure that what they're selling us in our free Western countries is democracy at all.
- r00fus 4y ago
  Perhaps those who were instrumental in how elections were influenced were afraid that by changing the system, they'd lock themselves out of the existing election-meddling process? I'm not saying that votes are fixed (though I wouldn't be surprised), but lots of money goes into essentially buying seats of power.
- stefantalpalaru 4y ago
  [dead]
- patrickdavey 4y ago
  Did you read Mindf*ck? Fascinating book. I'd be so so angry about Brexit after reading it if I'd been affected.
- arealaccount 4y ago
  Russia didn’t have a “major hand” in western elections.
  - olivermarks 4y ago
    It sounds as though Israel might have though...
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    Given how close the 2016 elections were, even a relatively "non-major" influence (via hacking and releasing the DNC emails and running social media campaigns) was plausibly enough to change the actual outcome.
- user3939382 4y ago
  You missed the update where it was proven that the "Russian meddling" story was fake. The meddling in our elections was the social media companies suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop story right before the election, which the media also claimed was "Russian ops" while Hunter since admitted it was his laptop (full of emails detailing the corruption in his family). The amount of propaganda and lies that is fed to the American public through these corporate media outlets is absolutely astounding.
  - mjfl 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - apstls 4y ago
    One minute of googling found these: - https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download - https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/report_volume5.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... - https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf - https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume4.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... - https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download Spending some time flipping through these (ignore the last two if you please, one heavily redacted and the other focusing on Trump) after reading your comment makes me wonder if we live in two parallel universes that are in the process of converging.
    - user3939382 4y ago
      It's one universe -- this activity within the government you're citing culminated in the Mueller investigation's final report, which read "insufficient evidence of a criminal conspiracy". Let me translate that for you: the whole thing was a hoax from day 1, discussed non-stop by our de-facto state media corporate press, and pushed non-stop for years on the American public by the DNC which is the source of those documents. The dossier that was used as a basis for launching all of this in the first place: "Main Steele dossier source Igor Danchenko was FBI operative: court document" https://nypost.com/2022/09/14/main-steele-dossier-source-igor-danchenko-was-fbi-operative/ https://nypost.com/2022/09/14/main-steele-dossier-source-igo... Actually it was discovered that the Clinton campaign paying for "opposition research" was in turn the source of that fake dossier. The whole thing was made up, that's not even controversial at this point. The fact that you're on here citing those documents as if it wasn't just proves the pervasiveness of the corruption of our system of democracy and media. Here's coverage on all of this from the journalist that broke the Snowden story and is maligned by our state/corporate/fascist media outlets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-lg5RU8xAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-lg5RU8xAI
- bink 4y ago
  What's even more scary to me is that there are several groups out there openly advertising the fact that they have exploits that can compromise all major cell phone brands, undetectably. These groups, some commercial and some governmental inside the US, Israel, Italy, and elsewhere, can hack the phones and mobile devices of Presidents/Prime Ministers, member of Congress/Parliament, Supreme Court justices, and the military. This presents the risk of blackmail/extortion being used to control critical decisions and actions made by these people every day. They are not shy about advertising these capabilities and the rules they put in place to limit damage mostly concern damage to the hacking groups, not to countries or people.
- mjfl 4y ago
  wasn't 'Russia meddling' a planted story by US domestic intelligence, as has come to light in the Twitter files?
  - knewter 4y ago
    Yes, but people that were duped prefer to keep that info from themselves
  - apstls 4y ago
    Is this sarcasm, or is there a subset of people here who truly believe that the Twitter “files” prove the significant investigative effort, offensive actions by US Cyber Command against the IRA, direct acknowledgement of the activities by Yevgeny Prigozhin, additional investigation and confirmation by private security companies that all echoed the same, highly-believable conclusion were fabricated in a coordinated effort by US intelligence to deceive the people into believing that a nation that has been openly hostile against US cyberspace has… continued to do so, this time in a new way? If this was indeed a sarcastic comment, I would consider dialing back the subtlety so you don’t inadvertently appear to lend credence to misinformation currently being spread among less scrupulous portions of the population.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Unfortunately there are plenty of people who believe this.
    - upsidesinclude 4y ago
      No, the previous comment brought up Trump, which is clearly alluding to "Russian collusion". I'm fine with distaste for Trump and the realities of disinformation campaigns, but the focus of the Twitter files in this regard is clearly specific to the false Russia Trump connection propagated by Dem polticians and leftists.
      - epakai 4y ago
        There's enough there to remain suspicious. The Trump campaign hid their meetings with Russians (see Flynn's transition meetings). They lied about the purpose of the Trump tower meetings. They have claimed financial ties to Russian financial institutions in the past. None of these things are "false connections propagated by Dem politicians and leftists". They have made these connections evident through their own admissions, and denials. There is certainly a narrative that drives beyond what we have evidence for, but it's absurd to pretend these things were only propagated from political rivals trying to attack their rivals.
- creato 4y ago
  What exactly should have been done? I don't see why a "top politician jailed" is something that should happen unless they committed a crime. Trump benefited from Russian meddling and refused to admit that it happened, which is a gross failure, but its not criminal. That should be a behavior that loses votes from voters, but that's a very different problem. The only official actions that should have been taken in response were sanctions or other international relations consequences for Russia. Trump's biggest failing on this issue was to not realize he could do this without compromising the legitimacy of his election.
- igravious 4y ago
  Eh? Twitter Files is a thing now. “WASHINGTON (TND) — The latest Twitter files release shows the company knew there was no evidence of Russians spreading disinformation on the platform as Democrats pushed those accusations in the media.” https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/russian-disinformation-at-center-of-latest-twitter-files-revelations https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/russian-disinformatio...
- tomohawk 4y ago
  Russia Meddling was all sourced from Hamilton 68, which is now completely discredited. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1619029772977455105.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1619029772977455105.html
  - epakai 4y ago
    Seen it with my own eyes, but several people in this thread go all out to completely dismiss it based on twitter files that exist to push a particular narrative. There were concerted efforts to push messaging via left-wing sub-reddits. I saw how the narrative pushed had little logical basis towards achieving the ends they pretended to push. I watched as the trolls waxed and waned with the war effort. I watched the same spaces push anti-Ukraine messaging when it had nothing whatsoever to do with their claimed political goals. Then I watched most of them disappear after enough people pointed out what they were doing. https://old.reddit.com/r/ActiveMeasures/comments/titwwg/fyi_lrlourpresident_mod_of_subreddits_like/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ActiveMeasures/comments/titwwg/fyi_...
- mostlysentient 4y ago
  [dead]
- chimprich 4y ago
  > You know what is terrifying? That upon learning about Russia having a major hand in Western election, nothing concrete was done. I don't think that's entirely fair. There's been no political route open to prosecuting anyone for the above, but there's been plenty of concrete actions. Western opposition to Russia has increased substantially in recent years. Would we have been as vigorous in our support for Ukraine and eager to supply weapons and all the other things if Russia hadn't been pulling off all these shenanigans? It probably had an effect and Russia is certainly facing consequences. Western intelligence has also been a lot more proactive in combatting Russian misinformation.
dariosalvi78 4y ago
this kinda proves how pointless social media are for public discussion. You either follow profiles you trust (friends, public figures) or you can flat-out disregard the rest as utter rubbish.
- totetsu 4y ago
  So long as every one else also know this
- readthenotes1 4y ago
  Why should i believe you? :)
  - honkler 4y ago
    don't need to. Free to waste your time and life over pointless interactions on "social" media.
    - iinnPP 4y ago
      How does one use HN with a whitelist?
rossdavidh 4y ago
"Given their expertise in subterfuge, it is perhaps surprising that Hanan and his colleagues allowed themselves to be exposed by undercover reporters." Surprising, unless the guys are actually just good at lying to potential customers, to fleece them of as much $$ as possible. I'm not saying they don't use sock puppet social media accounts, etc. but really, how would any of their customers know if it was at all effective? They wouldn't. After the fact, if they won, they wouldn't know if this helped, and if they lost, it's not like they could sue in court, or even just complain loudly to trash this group's reputation. It seems quite ripe for inflated claims and ineffective results. Of course, they might also be trying, or who knows maybe even succeeding, but it would be a lot simpler just to put up a show for your customer and collect the money.
- SimianSci 4y ago
  The Venn diagram overlap between grifters, and mercenary hacker groups is very close to a single circle. Any group with slight competence will find their client an easier and more profitable target than their intended quarry. Do some bare-minimum intelligence work while simultaneously inflating the results with fabricated evidence. I don't see how the realities of such an industry wouldn't be a race to the bottom
- alisonatwork 4y ago
  One of the tropes of spy novels is you can never trust a spy, and I think it'd be fair to say you can never trust a hacker or disinformation merchant either. Nevertheless, intelligence agencies and organized crime continues to exist, because the people employing said sources make their own risk assessments and incorporate that into the cost benefit analysis. And it appears that there is still at least some perceived benefit in trying to manipulate the outcomes of democracy on a grander scale than was previously achievable due to vulnerabilities of modern communication platforms. A more interesting question is why haven't governments - or even the platforms themselves - worked hard to shut down these known vulnerabilities? Doesn't it undermine the trust of the users to know that there are professional organizations actively creating thousands of fake accounts that deliberately spread (at best) partisan propaganda and (at worst) outright disinformation? Doesn't it work against the lofty ideals of social media being a community space where real people can engage with one another? The fact the companies are so unresponsive to removing abusers shows their incentives are not aligned with those of their users.
r721 4y ago
Another discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34803779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34803779
- ianai 4y ago
  Better article than this. The sad thing is we’re probably trivially close to the tech needed for direct democracy, but the powers that be use tech to confuse and supplant democratic institutions and propose their authoritarian rule.
  - baremetal 4y ago
    Direct democracy with full vote transparency for every voter.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      That's what the USSR had. Didn't work so well. A secret ballot is a major requirement for democracy.
      - barbazoo 4y ago
        There was one option on the ballot, I think that was more the problem. Having choice and not having someone with a gun escort you to the ballot box are bigger requirements. If there were no repercussions, voting could totally be open, don't you think?
        WalterBright 4y ago
        Do you really want the thug in power to know you didn't vote for him?
        barbazoo 4y ago
        That's exactly my point, it's a problem because there is a "thug in power". That's the problem, not open voting.
AtomicOrbital 4y ago
Nation state government model is obsolete... each person needs to be self governed ... no passport needed... each person must be free to live and work anywhere globally... people must be free to choose who/what they align with... full anonymous... notion of zero trust from information theory to guide all transactions... currency also obsolete... until this full global cutover comes noone is fully actualized ... non human life is the model people need to aspire to ... why let iron age societal dynamics rule is all
- seer 4y ago
  Yeah sure, tell that to all the obsolete nation states living on the border of Russia. Who is gonna protect you if the next village town or city decides your individual property is somehow theirs and they have the means and will to enforce it? As much as you can prep to defend yourself against attacks bh other individuals, nobody around you is bannaed from forming a band/group/nation. And if they are banned, who is going to enforce it? In the end it all comes down to the ability to direct violence, the society with the bigger stick wins in the end, and nations and systems of governance that can produce smaller sticks are just eventually snuffed from existence, no matter how bright egalitarian and fair they are to their participants … just look at Armenia, Georgia, Cechnia and Ukraine.
  - fromseashore 4y ago
    And who is going to protect Russian people rights in these "nation states on the border of Russia"? Your country? The only moment when you care about "Russian people rights", is when some ignorant youngsters take out to the streets to make another "revolution" which might destroy their state.
BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago
US representatives and senators who spoke up against Israeli settlements tended to lose against opponents with AIPAC funding. It's been going on for decades. What we now see is an evolution into social media. Al Jazeera had prepared a story on the tentacles AIPAC had into US politics, but at the time Mohammed bin Salman was making serious noises about invading Qatar,one of the reasons being Al Jazeera's reportage. The story was dropped and MbS was persuaded to back off.
- SkyMarshal 4y ago
  I don’t understand the link between AIPAC and MBS here. Why would MBS want to suppress a story on AIPAC’s influence on US politics?
  - miguelazo 4y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/19/why-israel-quietly-cosying-up-to-gulf-monarchies-saudi-arabia-uae https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/19/why-israel-quie...
- solalf 4y ago
  Saudi Arabia put up a blockade (with an Arab coalition support) of Qatar for a number of reasons[1], one of which being Al Jazeera’s incendiary (in their opinion) coverage of sensitive topics within the Arab world during the Arab Spring. Saudi Arabia wanted the channel shut down. They never intended to invade and the biggest factor was Qatar’s relationship with Iran (Saudi Arabia’s arch rival). The link with AIPAC? Why would the Saudis, who have no formal diplomatic relations with Israel care? Sounds like a complete made up conspiracy theory. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_diplomatic_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_diplomatic_crisis
  - miguelazo 4y ago
    Wrong. The lack of formal diplomatic relations means little. The Saudis became very friendly with Israel during the Trump administration. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/mideast/open-secret-saudi-arabia-israel-get-cozy-n821136 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/mideast/open-secret-saudi-arabi...
hulitu 4y ago
> A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections Only one ?

182 points by awsation 4y ago

sph 4y ago

First it was Russia meddling with elections (Trump, Brexit), now it's a team led by an ex Israeli special forces guy — which reminds me a bit of the NSO Group story. You know what is terrifying? That upon learning about Russia having a major hand in Western election, nothing concrete was done. In Britain we learned the whole Brexit movement was paid for, and manipulated by Russian money (and it was arguably a crucial milestone mentioned in the infamous Foundations of Geopolitics book), yet there was a little noise on printed media that went nowhere. No one investigated, no top politician jailed, just business as usual. I'm not even sure that what they're selling us in our free Western countries is democracy at all.

r00fus 4y ago
Perhaps those who were instrumental in how elections were influenced were afraid that by changing the system, they'd lock themselves out of the existing election-meddling process? I'm not saying that votes are fixed (though I wouldn't be surprised), but lots of money goes into essentially buying seats of power.
stefantalpalaru 4y ago
[dead]
patrickdavey 4y ago
Did you read Mindf*ck? Fascinating book. I'd be so so angry about Brexit after reading it if I'd been affected.
arealaccount 4y ago
Russia didn’t have a “major hand” in western elections.
- olivermarks 4y ago
  It sounds as though Israel might have though...
- hackerlight 4y ago
  Given how close the 2016 elections were, even a relatively "non-major" influence (via hacking and releasing the DNC emails and running social media campaigns) was plausibly enough to change the actual outcome.
user3939382 4y ago
You missed the update where it was proven that the "Russian meddling" story was fake. The meddling in our elections was the social media companies suppressing the Hunter Biden laptop story right before the election, which the media also claimed was "Russian ops" while Hunter since admitted it was his laptop (full of emails detailing the corruption in his family). The amount of propaganda and lies that is fed to the American public through these corporate media outlets is absolutely astounding.
- mjfl 4y ago
  [flagged]
- apstls 4y ago
  One minute of googling found these: - https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download https://www.justice.gov/file/1080281/download - https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/report_volume5.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... - https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf - https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume4.pdf https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu... - https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1373816/download Spending some time flipping through these (ignore the last two if you please, one heavily redacted and the other focusing on Trump) after reading your comment makes me wonder if we live in two parallel universes that are in the process of converging.
  - user3939382 4y ago
    It's one universe -- this activity within the government you're citing culminated in the Mueller investigation's final report, which read "insufficient evidence of a criminal conspiracy". Let me translate that for you: the whole thing was a hoax from day 1, discussed non-stop by our de-facto state media corporate press, and pushed non-stop for years on the American public by the DNC which is the source of those documents. The dossier that was used as a basis for launching all of this in the first place: "Main Steele dossier source Igor Danchenko was FBI operative: court document" https://nypost.com/2022/09/14/main-steele-dossier-source-igor-danchenko-was-fbi-operative/ https://nypost.com/2022/09/14/main-steele-dossier-source-igo... Actually it was discovered that the Clinton campaign paying for "opposition research" was in turn the source of that fake dossier. The whole thing was made up, that's not even controversial at this point. The fact that you're on here citing those documents as if it wasn't just proves the pervasiveness of the corruption of our system of democracy and media. Here's coverage on all of this from the journalist that broke the Snowden story and is maligned by our state/corporate/fascist media outlets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-lg5RU8xAI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-lg5RU8xAI
bink 4y ago
What's even more scary to me is that there are several groups out there openly advertising the fact that they have exploits that can compromise all major cell phone brands, undetectably. These groups, some commercial and some governmental inside the US, Israel, Italy, and elsewhere, can hack the phones and mobile devices of Presidents/Prime Ministers, member of Congress/Parliament, Supreme Court justices, and the military. This presents the risk of blackmail/extortion being used to control critical decisions and actions made by these people every day. They are not shy about advertising these capabilities and the rules they put in place to limit damage mostly concern damage to the hacking groups, not to countries or people.
mjfl 4y ago
wasn't 'Russia meddling' a planted story by US domestic intelligence, as has come to light in the Twitter files?
- knewter 4y ago
  Yes, but people that were duped prefer to keep that info from themselves
- apstls 4y ago
  Is this sarcasm, or is there a subset of people here who truly believe that the Twitter “files” prove the significant investigative effort, offensive actions by US Cyber Command against the IRA, direct acknowledgement of the activities by Yevgeny Prigozhin, additional investigation and confirmation by private security companies that all echoed the same, highly-believable conclusion were fabricated in a coordinated effort by US intelligence to deceive the people into believing that a nation that has been openly hostile against US cyberspace has… continued to do so, this time in a new way? If this was indeed a sarcastic comment, I would consider dialing back the subtlety so you don’t inadvertently appear to lend credence to misinformation currently being spread among less scrupulous portions of the population.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Unfortunately there are plenty of people who believe this.
  - upsidesinclude 4y ago
    No, the previous comment brought up Trump, which is clearly alluding to "Russian collusion". I'm fine with distaste for Trump and the realities of disinformation campaigns, but the focus of the Twitter files in this regard is clearly specific to the false Russia Trump connection propagated by Dem polticians and leftists.
    - epakai 4y ago
      There's enough there to remain suspicious. The Trump campaign hid their meetings with Russians (see Flynn's transition meetings). They lied about the purpose of the Trump tower meetings. They have claimed financial ties to Russian financial institutions in the past. None of these things are "false connections propagated by Dem politicians and leftists". They have made these connections evident through their own admissions, and denials. There is certainly a narrative that drives beyond what we have evidence for, but it's absurd to pretend these things were only propagated from political rivals trying to attack their rivals.
creato 4y ago
What exactly should have been done? I don't see why a "top politician jailed" is something that should happen unless they committed a crime. Trump benefited from Russian meddling and refused to admit that it happened, which is a gross failure, but its not criminal. That should be a behavior that loses votes from voters, but that's a very different problem. The only official actions that should have been taken in response were sanctions or other international relations consequences for Russia. Trump's biggest failing on this issue was to not realize he could do this without compromising the legitimacy of his election.
igravious 4y ago
Eh? Twitter Files is a thing now. “WASHINGTON (TND) — The latest Twitter files release shows the company knew there was no evidence of Russians spreading disinformation on the platform as Democrats pushed those accusations in the media.” https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/russian-disinformation-at-center-of-latest-twitter-files-revelations https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/russian-disinformatio...
tomohawk 4y ago
Russia Meddling was all sourced from Hamilton 68, which is now completely discredited. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1619029772977455105.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1619029772977455105.html
- epakai 4y ago
  Seen it with my own eyes, but several people in this thread go all out to completely dismiss it based on twitter files that exist to push a particular narrative. There were concerted efforts to push messaging via left-wing sub-reddits. I saw how the narrative pushed had little logical basis towards achieving the ends they pretended to push. I watched as the trolls waxed and waned with the war effort. I watched the same spaces push anti-Ukraine messaging when it had nothing whatsoever to do with their claimed political goals. Then I watched most of them disappear after enough people pointed out what they were doing. https://old.reddit.com/r/ActiveMeasures/comments/titwwg/fyi_lrlourpresident_mod_of_subreddits_like/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ActiveMeasures/comments/titwwg/fyi_...
mostlysentient 4y ago
[dead]
chimprich 4y ago
> You know what is terrifying? That upon learning about Russia having a major hand in Western election, nothing concrete was done. I don't think that's entirely fair. There's been no political route open to prosecuting anyone for the above, but there's been plenty of concrete actions. Western opposition to Russia has increased substantially in recent years. Would we have been as vigorous in our support for Ukraine and eager to supply weapons and all the other things if Russia hadn't been pulling off all these shenanigans? It probably had an effect and Russia is certainly facing consequences. Western intelligence has also been a lot more proactive in combatting Russian misinformation.

dariosalvi78 4y ago

this kinda proves how pointless social media are for public discussion. You either follow profiles you trust (friends, public figures) or you can flat-out disregard the rest as utter rubbish.

totetsu 4y ago
So long as every one else also know this
readthenotes1 4y ago
Why should i believe you? :)
- honkler 4y ago
  don't need to. Free to waste your time and life over pointless interactions on "social" media.
  - iinnPP 4y ago
    How does one use HN with a whitelist?

rossdavidh 4y ago

"Given their expertise in subterfuge, it is perhaps surprising that Hanan and his colleagues allowed themselves to be exposed by undercover reporters." Surprising, unless the guys are actually just good at lying to potential customers, to fleece them of as much $$ as possible. I'm not saying they don't use sock puppet social media accounts, etc. but really, how would any of their customers know if it was at all effective? They wouldn't. After the fact, if they won, they wouldn't know if this helped, and if they lost, it's not like they could sue in court, or even just complain loudly to trash this group's reputation. It seems quite ripe for inflated claims and ineffective results. Of course, they might also be trying, or who knows maybe even succeeding, but it would be a lot simpler just to put up a show for your customer and collect the money.

SimianSci 4y ago
The Venn diagram overlap between grifters, and mercenary hacker groups is very close to a single circle. Any group with slight competence will find their client an easier and more profitable target than their intended quarry. Do some bare-minimum intelligence work while simultaneously inflating the results with fabricated evidence. I don't see how the realities of such an industry wouldn't be a race to the bottom
alisonatwork 4y ago
One of the tropes of spy novels is you can never trust a spy, and I think it'd be fair to say you can never trust a hacker or disinformation merchant either. Nevertheless, intelligence agencies and organized crime continues to exist, because the people employing said sources make their own risk assessments and incorporate that into the cost benefit analysis. And it appears that there is still at least some perceived benefit in trying to manipulate the outcomes of democracy on a grander scale than was previously achievable due to vulnerabilities of modern communication platforms. A more interesting question is why haven't governments - or even the platforms themselves - worked hard to shut down these known vulnerabilities? Doesn't it undermine the trust of the users to know that there are professional organizations actively creating thousands of fake accounts that deliberately spread (at best) partisan propaganda and (at worst) outright disinformation? Doesn't it work against the lofty ideals of social media being a community space where real people can engage with one another? The fact the companies are so unresponsive to removing abusers shows their incentives are not aligned with those of their users.

r721 4y ago

Another discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34803779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34803779

ianai 4y ago
Better article than this. The sad thing is we’re probably trivially close to the tech needed for direct democracy, but the powers that be use tech to confuse and supplant democratic institutions and propose their authoritarian rule.
- baremetal 4y ago
  Direct democracy with full vote transparency for every voter.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    That's what the USSR had. Didn't work so well. A secret ballot is a major requirement for democracy.
    - barbazoo 4y ago
      There was one option on the ballot, I think that was more the problem. Having choice and not having someone with a gun escort you to the ballot box are bigger requirements. If there were no repercussions, voting could totally be open, don't you think?
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        Do you really want the thug in power to know you didn't vote for him?
        barbazoo 4y ago
        That's exactly my point, it's a problem because there is a "thug in power". That's the problem, not open voting.

AtomicOrbital 4y ago

Nation state government model is obsolete... each person needs to be self governed ... no passport needed... each person must be free to live and work anywhere globally... people must be free to choose who/what they align with... full anonymous... notion of zero trust from information theory to guide all transactions... currency also obsolete... until this full global cutover comes noone is fully actualized ... non human life is the model people need to aspire to ... why let iron age societal dynamics rule is all

seer 4y ago
Yeah sure, tell that to all the obsolete nation states living on the border of Russia. Who is gonna protect you if the next village town or city decides your individual property is somehow theirs and they have the means and will to enforce it? As much as you can prep to defend yourself against attacks bh other individuals, nobody around you is bannaed from forming a band/group/nation. And if they are banned, who is going to enforce it? In the end it all comes down to the ability to direct violence, the society with the bigger stick wins in the end, and nations and systems of governance that can produce smaller sticks are just eventually snuffed from existence, no matter how bright egalitarian and fair they are to their participants … just look at Armenia, Georgia, Cechnia and Ukraine.
- fromseashore 4y ago
  And who is going to protect Russian people rights in these "nation states on the border of Russia"? Your country? The only moment when you care about "Russian people rights", is when some ignorant youngsters take out to the streets to make another "revolution" which might destroy their state.

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 4y ago

US representatives and senators who spoke up against Israeli settlements tended to lose against opponents with AIPAC funding. It's been going on for decades. What we now see is an evolution into social media. Al Jazeera had prepared a story on the tentacles AIPAC had into US politics, but at the time Mohammed bin Salman was making serious noises about invading Qatar,one of the reasons being Al Jazeera's reportage. The story was dropped and MbS was persuaded to back off.

SkyMarshal 4y ago
I don’t understand the link between AIPAC and MBS here. Why would MBS want to suppress a story on AIPAC’s influence on US politics?
- miguelazo 4y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/19/why-israel-quietly-cosying-up-to-gulf-monarchies-saudi-arabia-uae https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/19/why-israel-quie...
solalf 4y ago
Saudi Arabia put up a blockade (with an Arab coalition support) of Qatar for a number of reasons[1], one of which being Al Jazeera’s incendiary (in their opinion) coverage of sensitive topics within the Arab world during the Arab Spring. Saudi Arabia wanted the channel shut down. They never intended to invade and the biggest factor was Qatar’s relationship with Iran (Saudi Arabia’s arch rival). The link with AIPAC? Why would the Saudis, who have no formal diplomatic relations with Israel care? Sounds like a complete made up conspiracy theory. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_diplomatic_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatar_diplomatic_crisis
- miguelazo 4y ago
  Wrong. The lack of formal diplomatic relations means little. The Saudis became very friendly with Israel during the Trump administration. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/mideast/open-secret-saudi-arabia-israel-get-cozy-n821136 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/mideast/open-secret-saudi-arabi...

hulitu 4y ago

> A hacking and disinformation team meddling in elections Only one ?