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I think you’d be hard pressed to name another case where there that kind of breaking change was very successful. I’d highlight the python 2->3 change as not som

by eej71 4y ago

I think you’d be hard pressed to name another case where there that kind of breaking change was very successful. I’d highlight the python 2->3 change as not something to replicate. Same with what has happened to Perl.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
mejutoco 4y ago
Js -> Typescript? As an opinionated js, definitely. Probably also incremental, in a way.
- creata 4y ago
  I don't know why (maybe someone can explain?) but frontend developers seem very happy to frequently move between languages and frameworks. I don't think that's true for the places where C++ is popular.
  - fredrikholm 4y ago
    C++ is (primarily) used where there aren't any other viable alternatives (other than C). Browser frontends (in general) set not such demands (size, memory, speed guarantees) and its bloat more often comes from things outside of code (images, videos, trackers), so there's freedom to use whatever floats ones boat. Combined with the ever increasing demands on app complexity, frameworks and born left and right. The strong movement into functional programming in this area has also led the way for other languages (SMLs, Lisps) that better fit that model.
  - zabzonk 4y ago
    you would be wrong - i used to be a c++ developer working in finance, and I and my colleagues routinely used at least half a dozen other languages, and frameworks.
    - creata 4y ago
      Can you give us some examples?
      - zabzonk 4y ago
        c++, c, java vb, python, js, various stored proc languages, bash scripts were all used on the last project i worked on, along with tibco, reuters, com, corba frameworks. plus certainly stuff i have forgotten.
eru 4y ago
The Python 2 to 3 transition took a while, but I'd say it was successful in the end, wasn't it?
- oblio 4y ago
  There are some arguments to be made they didn't break enough. For example: - I think they bungled the Unicode transition by being too dogmatic and it took them a few point releases to include some quality of life improvements for migration that really allowed legacy libraries to transition - the GIL dependency didn't go away - typing was added later Python 3 would have been a huge jump with those changes. Instead, Python 3.0 was very interesting but a major annoyance for limited benefits to 99% of Python app devs.
  - eru 4y ago
    I agree with your points. There's some serious work going on with the GIL these days. And also about immutability and reducing reference counting. > [...] it took them a few point releases to include some quality of life improvements for migration that really allowed legacy libraries to transition I wouldn't hold that against the transition too much. No one gets everything right from the start. About typing: owing to Python's culture, I don't think mainstream Python will be statically typed by default (or even obligatorily) anytime soon.
- deadbeeves 4y ago
  That would imply that it actually finished, which is not obvious to me. The last time I found Python 2 code must have been a few months ago, and I'm not a regular Python user. And that's kind of the problem: old code never just goes away. It lingers until you try to compile it and it fails.
  - eru 4y ago
    Isn't that the same with old versions of eg C++?
    - 4y ago

by eej71 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

mejutoco 4y ago

Js -> Typescript? As an opinionated js, definitely. Probably also incremental, in a way.

creata 4y ago
I don't know why (maybe someone can explain?) but frontend developers seem very happy to frequently move between languages and frameworks. I don't think that's true for the places where C++ is popular.
- fredrikholm 4y ago
  C++ is (primarily) used where there aren't any other viable alternatives (other than C). Browser frontends (in general) set not such demands (size, memory, speed guarantees) and its bloat more often comes from things outside of code (images, videos, trackers), so there's freedom to use whatever floats ones boat. Combined with the ever increasing demands on app complexity, frameworks and born left and right. The strong movement into functional programming in this area has also led the way for other languages (SMLs, Lisps) that better fit that model.
- zabzonk 4y ago
  you would be wrong - i used to be a c++ developer working in finance, and I and my colleagues routinely used at least half a dozen other languages, and frameworks.
  - creata 4y ago
    Can you give us some examples?
    - zabzonk 4y ago
      c++, c, java vb, python, js, various stored proc languages, bash scripts were all used on the last project i worked on, along with tibco, reuters, com, corba frameworks. plus certainly stuff i have forgotten.

eru 4y ago

The Python 2 to 3 transition took a while, but I'd say it was successful in the end, wasn't it?

oblio 4y ago
There are some arguments to be made they didn't break enough. For example: - I think they bungled the Unicode transition by being too dogmatic and it took them a few point releases to include some quality of life improvements for migration that really allowed legacy libraries to transition - the GIL dependency didn't go away - typing was added later Python 3 would have been a huge jump with those changes. Instead, Python 3.0 was very interesting but a major annoyance for limited benefits to 99% of Python app devs.
- eru 4y ago
  I agree with your points. There's some serious work going on with the GIL these days. And also about immutability and reducing reference counting. > [...] it took them a few point releases to include some quality of life improvements for migration that really allowed legacy libraries to transition I wouldn't hold that against the transition too much. No one gets everything right from the start. About typing: owing to Python's culture, I don't think mainstream Python will be statically typed by default (or even obligatorily) anytime soon.
deadbeeves 4y ago
That would imply that it actually finished, which is not obvious to me. The last time I found Python 2 code must have been a few months ago, and I'm not a regular Python user. And that's kind of the problem: old code never just goes away. It lingers until you try to compile it and it fails.
- eru 4y ago
  Isn't that the same with old versions of eg C++?
  - 4y ago