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Tesla Workers Launch Union Campaign in New York

146 points by he0001 4y ago

fundad 4y ago
Space Rupert is going to hate this
elif 4y ago
As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?
- aliqot 4y ago
  imo very few industries need unions, and most devolve post union integration. it seems like there's no one size fits all union model and about a million ways to turn it into a kludgy fiefdom. edit: downvote with your words you nerds
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  As someone who has never needed "the police" to provide physical security, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek to form governments to "provide security" rather than through individual enforcement of the law through firearm ownership.
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  - soco 4y ago
    Please please think of the Poe's law when writing such comments... we might be HN but we're humans too.
  - SiempreViernes 4y ago
    I suspect this comment would benefit from adding a clarifying "/s" at the end.
  - mattkevan 4y ago
    As someone who has never needed "the fire brigade" to extinguish a fire in my house, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek to form governments to "provide fire services" rather than through individual application of water through bucket ownership.
- maxehmookau 4y ago
  The idea that "invidivual performance and personal relationships" provides job security is a laughable idea in almost any industry. The wave of tech layoffs should've made that clear. The USA's primal hatred of unions will always blow my mind. There's power in a union my friend.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    You're talking about specific job security. He's talking about general job security (or at least seems to be based on wording). A union protects your specific job for a specific employer (or set of employers or subset of industry). Networks and reputation protect your ability to get paid for the thing you do in general. The degree to which either approach is successful is going to depend on one's industry and position/skill-set therein. Edit: This shouldn't need to be said but the above should not be construed as an endorsement of either approach.
    - vidarh 4y ago
      The latter is mostly relevant for specialist, high paid labour. I'm not in a union, but I'm also roughly in the 1%. If I was anywhere below the top 5% or so, I'd have joined a union in a heartbeat, and like commenters above I find the US resistance to unions utterly bizarre, not least because US unions were instrumental in laying the groundwork for a lot of modern labour protections, to the point of losing lives as part of those battles. Even May 1st as an international day for labour demonstrations came after a request from the AFL in part as commemoration of the Chicago Haymarket Massacre, and as a renewal of the multi-decades fight for the 8 hour working day.
    - jimnotgym 4y ago
      If ones job at Tesla is to screw on wing mirrors, how should one go about building a network and developing their reputation? A github page? Speak at conferences maybe? I wish unions were not needed too, then I hear about shitty employers exploiting poor people and I accept that unions are needed.
  - elif 4y ago
    I'm not trying to say everyone that got let go is a low performer or has poor personal skills. I've seen plenty of good employees fired for bad or no reason. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that even working with a guillotine above my head feels preferable to having to pick up the slack of people coasting and not meeting their commitments.
- wyldfire 4y ago
  You just described collective bargaining as if it were like an individual hiring a salary negotiator. I suppose we can debate whether some jobs are better off with or without unionization but it doesn't sound like a genuine argument when you describe it that way. Sadly I think we can honestly say that the unproductive coworkers exist in many different professions and a significant drawback of unions is that they can thrive there.
- cactusplant7374 4y ago
  Wouldn’t Tesla build quality go up with a union that can make demands? If so, how can we say Tesla’s system is working and management isn’t unproductive and unreliable?
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    I have seen no evidence of build quality being higher in the unionized GM and Ford than the non-unionized Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda plants in the US. The opposite may even be true.
    - cactusplant7374 4y ago
      I was referring to panel gaps and other quality issues which are quite egregious with the Tesla brand.
      - Robotbeat 4y ago
        Is there any evidence that Toyota (etc) have worse cosmetic panel gaps than Ford and GM? Overall, Toyota (etc) have excellent quality.
- sidibe 4y ago
  If there's lots of competition over labor in the area, unions aren't necessary but if there isn't much the workers need some kind of leverage that they can't achieve individually. That's when unions are useful IMO, don't know if that's the case here
- iso1631 4y ago
  Your individual performance may be fine when your company is small enough that your boss works for the CTO directly. When you are in a company with thousands of employees it makes no difference.
  - elif 4y ago
    Job performance making no difference is my chief complaint. It leads to poor average performance which is a toxic work environment imo.
    - rtpg 4y ago
      You think all these tech layoffs are sorting by performance and slicing that way? Ignoring the fact that performance measurements are barely possible at a granular level to allow such an ordering One could argue about job perf making no difference in union shops (as if people don’t have some pride in their work since they’re spending a third of their life there and the vast majority of people are not trying to work in bad faith) but I think the implicit idea that non-union places have more than the most fat fingered and office politics dependent perf rivals is something to think about. We all know the coasting founder and the absentee manager I think that during layoffs in a union shop at least management has to think a lot harder about cuts, and how to do them.
- christophilus 4y ago
  Plenty of us feel the same way. Also, I hate bureaucracy. When you have a union, you have another bureaucracy to deal with. Granted, a good union is probably worth the added effort-- especially when you're in a field where the lack of a union leads to egregious abuses. I've never worked a job where a union felt like it would be a value add to me.
- GAN_Game 4y ago
  > Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Unproductive? Then you must really be exercised about the heirs who own the majority of stock, who can and often do siphon off the created wealth of those working and creating wealth, via dividend profit of expropriated surplus labor time. Oh, I see no such complaint. Just some co-workers who are "unproductive".
  - abduhl 4y ago
    Why is it only the heirs? Shouldn’t your issue be with all future stockholders beyond the original founders and venture capitalists? Although I assume you’d feel similar about the venture capitalists? You wouldn’t happen to own any stocks, would you?
    - xhkkffbf 4y ago
      Don't forget that many workers end up with stock too, either via options, grants or other mechanisms. Or maybe they just buy the stock because they things going well at the company.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    Have you seen the margins on businesses old enough to be owned by heirs? They're only "siphoning off" a few percent. Edit: I misunderstood. I thought the complaint was that the heirs were taking a lot of created wealth from each worker. Not simply that they were wealthy.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Those heirs are the richest people in Europe, owning everything from VW and Porsche to BMW and a bunch of other household names. And those few percent are coming off from quite huge figures...
      - leereeves 4y ago
        Yeah, the lack of new businesses is a big problem in Europe. Regulations and taxation kill them or drive them out of Europe. But I was speaking from a US perspective (since I'm from the US and this story is about the US), and our biggest, most profitable businesses are mostly under fifty years old, not over.
- arlcode 4y ago
  Working in Europe I have never been a member of a union but enjoy plenty of the achievements fought over in previous decades. Right now my strong market position as someone in a sought after field and with some experience under my belt I am able to negotiate an individual contract that exceeds collective bargain agreements (that's possible in most companies here). Members of my immediate family don't have that luxury. They are hardworking and diligent people at physically demanding jobs. Yet they get treated way worse than I in my cushy office job. Individually they don't have much bargaining power but as a group they can get a better outcome and negotiate eye to eye with business owners. It makes sense to carry a few underperformers with you if the benefits outweigh the costs. In the end market realities still require the company to make a profit or nobody gets paid. But there is no reason why workers/unions shouldn't demand a greater share of that profit. Look at almost any German International company for a working examples. All Auto manufacturers are heavily unionized and still manage to be innovative and make a very healthy profit. During the Euro crisis in 2008 Unions and business owners worked together to reduce hours and workforce because everyone understood the dire situation.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Considering that some "union" jobs in Germany (there are collectively negotiated terms and conditions per industry which apply to everyone working at a company covered by those conditions whether or not being an actual union member) can go up to as much 120k per year for a 40 hour work week, and increase by a couple of percent every other year so, well, those jobs are a lot more attractive than people think. Added benefit: working at rather stable companies with more or less solid financials.
- quadrifoliate 4y ago
  I don't think you're Stockholm Syndromed, but I definitely think you're lacking in empathy. Think about it this way -- do you think you have been always productive and reliable, 100% of the time? If not (let's say, 5% of the time you weren't), then you were the the unproductive or unreliable coworker, possibly due to factors in your life that you could not control. The idea of a union is that it insulates you from being instantly punished for factors you might not be able to control a little better than the market is doing right now. Look for news about new parents who were part of the layoffs recently. Out of "individual performance and developing personal relationships", the "developing personal relationships" part of the equation is slowly fading. When was the last time you got a job purely on the basis of your personal relationships without having to jump through hoops to show your skills? I am a little hesitant about unions too, but I'm at least willing to give them a chance based on the hack-and-slash behavior from industry leaders seeking to please their investors.
  - abduhl 4y ago
    >> The idea of a union is that it insulates you from being instantly punished for factors you might not be able to control a little better than the market is doing right now (look for news about new parents who were part of the layoffs recently). Since when has this been the idea of the union? Recall that nearly all union rules are set by seniority, not personal factors like having a bad day or having a child.
    - quadrifoliate 4y ago
      > Recall that nearly all union rules are set by seniority, not personal factors like having a bad day or having a child. I'm unable to understand what you're saying here. Of course, union rules are not set by personal factors. I meant that they make it less easy to fire you for personal factors due to the heavier emphasis on due process in unionized workplaces. In most non-union workplaces in the US, you can get fired because your boss had a bad day, or (practically) if you announce that you're pregnant. The latter case is theoretically protected, but it's very hard for an average person to get an appropriate lawyer, show a pattern and sue the workplace.
    - 4y ago
- mc32 4y ago
  The relationship between unions and company are as tenuous and they fulfil a dual role of parasite and symbiosis where from time to time they are symbiotic to the worker while being parasitic to the company and worker at different times. In ideal conditions they would not be necessary; however, companies at times become too powerful and forget or diminish the value of their workers giving unions an in. In the end, in the US at least Unions induce inefficiencies and add drag to a company. Yes, on the one hand companies don't voluntarily want to provide more benefits than the bare minimum but on the other hand they want to avoid the straightjacket that Unions tend to bring. I'm not saying we don't need unions but I am saying they are a very uneasy relationship for all parties but the union bosses.
- beanjuiceII 4y ago
  I've been working along side(not in) an IT union for 15 years, what an interesting ride.. If you ever want to see how unproductive and lazy people can be this is the place!
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
    I've only ever had one union job, and ever non-union job I've been in has had about the same number of unproductive lazy people. The unproductive lazy people at the union job didn't have to kiss ass and bullshit quite as much. That's it. P.S. Oh, and we had significantly better health care benefits at the union job.
- jackmott42 4y ago
  The viability of your approach varies a lot depending on the type of job. For creative or technical jobs, sure. For people just on an assembly line doing boring repetitive work, you don't have those levers. Not everyone is a warrior poet who is going to network, and if we all could do that, then it wouldn't work anymore.
- dhfbshfbu4u3 4y ago
  Aren’t you the same person who was worried your “voluntary” retirement might be held against you when/if you look for a job?
- wnkrshm 4y ago
  You are in the privileged position that your employer actually needs you specifically because you aren't easily replaced. That can change over time.
- nimbius 4y ago
  hi, im an IAM union diesel engine mechanic and have been for over a decade. Maybe I can help explain a bit. in a 'blue collar' job like manufacturing or shipping or any of the trades like plumbing or mechanical maintenance, the only part of the business that doesnt see meaningful pushback is the labor. My job performance as a TIG welder in Texas as part of an oil and gas company was stellar, but not stellar enough to keep me from things like "mandatory overtime" and having to show up at a frigid gas field at 4 am to fix a line in chronic disrepair. part of the reason for this is a rosy picture of the rugged life of a tradesman, a misunderstanding of just how hard this work is, and a disconnected culture of leadership that see us as expendables/undesireables/expenses. Personal relationships only go so far when your op supervisor only shows up to berate you about tardiness or demand you work a weekend. The union isnt a third party agency, its you. you decide what needs fixing, what doesnt work, and what you want changed to make your job more effective and a lot of times that includes your pay. when our shop unionized we did things like reduce shop floor noise, change how overtime gets assigned and made it voluntary, and even added paternity leave (we also get a say in our healthcare and opt in or out.) We even amended the companies equal opportunity employment statement to include LGBTQ+, something leadership resisted for a long time. unions dont guarantee everyone works hard (thats culture), but they help to make sure everyone whos hired to work is treated fairly and with respect, and they fight to prevent common excesses in trade like wage theft, mandatory overtime, unfair scheduling, retaliation, and dangerous work conditions. They can push back on myopic or bad management decisions that harm customers or degrade quality. The relationship isnt perfect. strikes can and do happen but when they do its mostly for good reasons like demanding sick leave (go get em CSX railworkers!!) and health insurance we were told the free market would provide us (looking at you Starbucks.) Federal law requires good faith collective bargaining, regardless of how many hit pieces on the evening news try to spin it any other way.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    > Those CSX rail workers just didn't work hard enough, and poor struggling management can't afford to give them paid sick leave because they're just so lazy and they work too slowly to be able to take the time off. The above should be obvious as cruel sarcasm, but based on how people talk (and vote), it seems that some people genuinely believe such things.
- beepbooptheory 4y ago
  Maybe a little bit, but just in kinda applying that kind of high level business logic of a manager onto yourself as a person. It is really best to not worry so much on being "more productive" for your boss. You have a specific contract, which delineates how you trade your labor for money, that's it. They will make you think that your personal productivity is more than that, and yes, that your fellow workers who are less productive are somehow an obstacle to you. But you gotta realize at least deep down the bad faith in this way of thinking, even of you understandably need to act the part day to day. Even if worker solidarity isn't you're thing, just for your mental health down the line you should adjust your thinking a little bit.
- RivieraKid 4y ago
  The theoretical reasoning behind unions is that they counteract the market power of companies over employees. If this market power assymetry doesn't exist (for example software engineers in San Francisco), unions are not beneficial to the society but at least slightly beneficial to the average union member assuming the union is making good decisions. Because more market power is always better than less market power. It's always advantageous to be a monopoly. If you're a highly productive employee, the company doesn't have market over you, you can easily find another job. But this may be different for an average employee.
  - dls2016 4y ago
    > for example software engineers in San Francisco Uhm... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
    - RivieraKid 4y ago
      Not sure what's your point.
- realslimjd 4y ago
  Unions can and do exist in right to work states. The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. Historically unions have been painted as extremely antagonistic towards companies in the United States, but there's no reason that has to be true. A well-run union recognizes that their survival is tied to the company's survival, and as long as both sides engage in good faith, they should reach an agreement that's mutually beneficial. To your point about job security, no one I know in unions wants to keep all employees no matter what. What people want is protection from being fired for no reason. Usually that means something like getting a PIP and six weeks to improve performance. Is that such an unreasonable ask? That way the employee has a chance to keep their job, and the company can potentially avoid the expense of hiring and training a new employee.
  - kingstoned 4y ago
    The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. What would people do with this theoretical collective power? Probably job security combined with restrictions on work. Do as little as you can while being guaranteed a paycheck. What people want is protection from being fired for no reason. How can people be fired for no reason? There is always a reason, whether it's related to company's performance, worker productivity or overall economic conditions.
    - realslimjd 4y ago
      I feel like you missed my point that it is not in a union's interest to protect low-performing workers. A union cannot survive without jobs, and union members are just as frustrated as anyone else when someone is not pulling their weight. To your point about labor restrictions, unions gave us two day weekends and forty hour weeks. Modern labor practices are almost entirely defined by things unions fought for and standardized. The restrictions we have on work now didn't nebulously appear from the goodwill of employers. People are absolutely fired for no reason all the time. Sometimes their boss is having a bad day. Maybe their manager is prejudiced against people wearing green shirts. Sometimes people are (illegally) fired for joining a union. People are not always rational, and that doesn't change between their work and personal lives.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  A decent union is mostly about job conditions, not job security - collective bargaining prevents a "race to the bottom" where abusive conditions creep in due to there always being some people who'll do the job anyway. A good example is the Screen Actors Guild which imposes all kinds of minimum conditions, for example, due to which all kinds of safety issues in filming are handled quite decently (even if stuff does still happen), despite the fact that many desperate wannabe actors would easily sign a contract where they agree to whatever conditions the company imposes.
  - surement 4y ago
    > conditions creep in due to there always being some people who'll do the job anyway don't worry, minimum wage laws keep those pesky people unemployed
    - mrzimmerman 4y ago
      I can’t tell if you’re against minimum wage laws or not but I’ll say regardless that minimum wage laws show a boat in worker income and small employment effects: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/844350/impacts_of_minimum_wages_review_of_the_international_evidence_Arindrajit_Dube_web.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
      - surement 4y ago
        The 5% of economists who suck up to politicians are always able to find data that shows that if you set a floor on the price of labor it somehow doesn't affect demand. The other 95%–the ones who aren't grifters–know that the only effect of minimum wage laws is unemployment for those who would otherwise make less than the price floor. This has devastating effects on teenage and young adult unemployment, and prevents those people from gaining experience, which is highly correlated with income. Everyone can already set their own price floor under which they will not work. There's zero good reason to make it illegal for people to choose their own minimum. This is third parties making the decision because they feel icky about it. No one who's ever had a low wage would've preferred to not work at all. Ask all the people e.g. who worked for $10/h before California raised the minimum wage to $15/h. When less experienced workers agree to receive less in compensation it's because they understand that they are not just being compensated financially, they are also gaining experience.
- zzzeek 4y ago
  this take is kind of breathtaking? There's an entire history of workers unions in the US and around the world, famous spurring events like the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory disaster, surely you aren't just waving the entire subject off as "absurd", thinking that whole factories of garment workers for example would have success via "individual performance" ? like they'd have fire exits just for the better performing workers? I can't even get my head around this take.
  - wil421 4y ago
    They are comparing an office job to a back breaking trade (plumbing, metal working, electrician) or manufacturing job. Factory jobs have lots of people doing the same reparative job, individual performance only goes so far. Would the bosses really care if you are the fastest chicken skinner or bolt screwer?
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    It exemplifies the "individual exceptionalism" attitude of many Americans, wherein they attribute all their successes to themselves and all their failures to external forces beyond their control.
    - zzzeek 4y ago
      yeah that's the baseline attitude of Hacker Newsers, that post went way above and beyond all that in its ignorance :)
- akerl_ 4y ago
  As individuals negotiating with a business, you’re always going to be at a massive disadvantage due to the balance of resources. The company is bigger than the people you’re building relationships with. Unions, done well, perform a lot of similar functions to insurance providers: they allow many people to collectively bargain in a way that can level the playing field in negotiations.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Do you enjoy free Saturdays? Paternity leave? Maternity leave? A pension? Health insurance? Holidays? A 40 hour work week? A safe working environment? Workplace training programs? And so on. All of these and more are the result of unions. You by your lonesome wouldn't stand a chance negotiating all of the above with the captains of industry, no matter how rare your talents.
- dfxm12 4y ago
  Probably. I think you should start by understanding the workers' conditions and demands better. Your post mentions job security and puts in quotes, and yeah, that is one thing the workers mentioned, but they've talked about more, too. If you've been treated with dignity and fairly compensated for your effort at your previous jobs, that's great! Not every employer is like that, though, and no amount of personal relationships can change them. In that situation, you gotta demand it together with your fellow worker.
- eunos 4y ago
  Reflecting on the latest big tech lay offs. Decisions about whom were targeted were made by folks 3-4 levels above you who doesnt know you personally and even your performance might not matter to them.
- jitix 4y ago
  When talking about unions the focus is generally on hourly wage jobs where the skills are quite transferable and thus workers’ leverage is less. A factory worker installing bolts on a panel in some car isn’t gonna get opportunities to show “individual performance” or get to develop “personal relationships” with their supervisor who’s probably managing dozens of people In context of white collar salaries jobs, esp software engineering I agree with you 100%.
- mrzimmerman 4y ago
  I also live in a “right to fire for whatever” state, often referred to as “right to work” which really means the right of employers to ignore union agreements and compensate individuals less if the individual agrees to it. It’s already illegal at the federal level to force someone to be part of a union and states like ours just work harder to make sure we don’t end up collectively bargaining for better conditions by controlling the supply of our labor of which our employers are the consumers (literally basic market economics and nothing more). Your statement brings to mind this quote from Martin Niemöller, who was sympathetic to the Nazis until he witnessed the escalation and reach of their beliefs: > First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. > Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist. > Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. > Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. > —Martin Niemöller
mensetmanusman 4y ago
On the bright side, if Tesla had a union, Biden might acknowledge that they actually exist in this world.
- alocasia-1 4y ago
  Like he acknowledged the rail workers?
  - Mountain_Skies 4y ago
    Going to be big trouble when the balloon workers of the world unite.
alfor 4y ago
I wouldn’t be surprised that UAW be behind that. It’s a very powerful organisation having a lot of political power. They see Tesla as a threat to their system as Tesla is the only in the US not part of it and they are doing better than all the other car companies. I know someone who saved companies from bankruptcy, usually heavy industries. When he get hired he install security cameras and other measures and after a few week usually find out that a lot of people are constantly stealing valuable materials from the company. It’s always people in the union with some friends that work on the floor. He confront them, fire them and a few months later the company become viable again. He found out that the most corrupt people are almost always in the Union organisation.
- moolcool 4y ago
  > they are doing better than all the other car companies By which metric? Their market cap is astronomical, but they, to be frank, don't actually make a lot of cars. Not to mention that virtually every product release is delayed ad nauseum, FSD from Tesla is both a pipe dream and a liability nightmare, and other manufacturers, both foreign and domestic, are rapidly catching up with appealing EVs.
  - mc32 4y ago
    Profit per electric car[1]. They beat all competitors by a very large margin. Heh, it looks like people disagree that this is a valid metric parent was asking for or disagree that the data is valid. Oh, goodness. [1]https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-uses-its-profits-weapon-an-ev-price-war-2023-01-19/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...
    - andsoitis 4y ago
      soecifically, tesla profitability per vehicle is 8 times that of toyota (as of Nov 2022).
      - mc32 4y ago
b34r 4y ago
They’re labelers, which are being quickly replaced by automation. This is a bid to secure their jobs long-term.
- mc32 4y ago
  While I get their unease.... moves like this in a Globalized economy (supported by most Unions) might just prompt Tesla (or any other) to find an overseas shop to do this work for them. It's really a lose-lose for them, in my view. They may buy themselves some temporary "relief" but it'll accelerate business propensity to find more economical alternatives.
  - b34r 4y ago
    Yes and ultimately they will reduce the headcount to a fraction of current size since autolabeling will work in most scenarios. To my knowledge this has already happened… labelers now are tagging new scenarios for the autolabeler to grok for future learning passes.
    - mc32 4y ago
      I don't live or been to Western Upstate NY... but I get the feeling their mindset is still pre-80s union and have a hard time realizing the realities of working in technology or technology adjacent industries. You cannot capture an industry. If you make doing business with them more difficult than necessary, they will seek friendlier terms elsewhere. And it's a shame, Buffalo deserves a chance to integrate into the modern economy so they should take advantage of these toe-holds to attract more industry interest to the area.
- b34r 4y ago
  Idk why people are downvoting me, it’s 100% facts. Google “Project Vacation”
  - elicash 4y ago
    I didn't downvote you, but this part describing their motivation reads as opinion, not facts: "This is a bid to secure their jobs long-term." I'm not anti-opinions, just responding to your 100% facts comment.
deleted 4y ago
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bryanlarsen 4y ago
Tesla should take the initiative and bring in a co-operative German-style union or they are going to get stuck with an antagonistic UAW or similar.
- SiempreViernes 4y ago
  [flagged]
- timecube 4y ago
  This is illegal under US law.
  - elicash 4y ago
    Company unions aren't permitted. But there's an element of this approach in the most recent approaches to undermining unions, where companies create groups for worker voices including ESG and DEI initiatives. I'm not saying companies doing this is necessarily bad, just being descriptive about that at least part of the motivation is to undermine union organizing, as even corporate lobbying groups describe it: https://theintercept.com/2022/06/07/union-busting-tactics-diversity/ https://theintercept.com/2022/06/07/union-busting-tactics-di... https://www.levernews.com/fear-and-loathing-among-the-union-busters/ https://www.levernews.com/fear-and-loathing-among-the-union-... As far as whatever is done in Germany, I can't speak to that since it's outside my area of knowledge.
  - kranke155 4y ago
    When / how ?
    - elicash 4y ago
      They are referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_union
- elicash 4y ago
  This is actually the same union that Starbucks workers are organizing with -- Workers United, which is an SEIU affiliate. I wonder if the Starbucks workers in Buffalo are helping this group of workers out. Also, here's what their website says about whether they are anti-Tesla: > No! We are pro-Tesla and pro-union. We want to work at Tesla and make it our career. We want Tesla to be the best it can be and a place where we can have successful and sustainable careers. If we didn't care about the company we wouldn't be putting this work into changing it for the better. https://tesla-workers-united.squarespace.com/faq https://tesla-workers-united.squarespace.com/faq
concordDance 4y ago
They trying to encourage Tesla abandoning that plant? The lure of more factories China (or even Texas) is hard enough to resist as it is.
NoblePublius 4y ago
LOL they’re office workers who “label data”. Meanwhile the factory workers all have seven figure options grants and aren’t interested.
- elicash 4y ago
  Considering their work is keeping people from being driven straight into trees and other cars, I don't know why you'd laugh at what their job consists of. But yes, the article mentions that Tesla has been working on auto-labeling for years and it's interesting tech that I hope is successful because it could improve safety.
- andruby 4y ago
  > the factory workers all have seven figure options grants I would genuinely like to see a citation for that. That's wonderful if true, but probably too expensive to be real.
ajross 4y ago
Not that it matters much as a matter of labor policy, but the factory in question is Gigafactory 2, which is a photovoltaic cell fab that employs (per Wikipedia) 1500 people. They make the roofing products, not cars or batteries.
- elicash 4y ago
  Per Bloomberg, this is specifically regarding a group of workers who "label data for Tesla’s Autopilot technology."
- Rebelgecko 4y ago
  Some reading about the factory - https://www.investigativepost.org/2023/01/11/teslas-solar-factory-in-buffalo-fizzles/ https://www.investigativepost.org/2023/01/11/teslas-solar-fa...
jakelazaroff 4y ago
> Workers at the Buffalo plant told Bloomberg that Tesla tracks their computer keystrokes to monitor how they work, prompting some employees to refrain from taking bathroom breaks. It’s honestly kind of mind boggling that this is even legal.
- kibwen 4y ago
  In the absence of labor regulation, employment sprints in the direction of slavery.
  - junofan 4y ago
    Keyloggers are nothing like chattel slavery. Melodramatic comparisons make labor advocates sound unreasonable. It’s fine to push for less intrusive performance monitoring on its own merits.
    - kibwen 4y ago
      Rather, the point is to illustrate how the default state of the employer-employee relationship is to be as unfavorable to the employee as the employer can get away with, where slavery is merely the extreme end of the scale that employers aspire to.
      - surement 4y ago
        if the "employer-employee relationship" was not a positive sum transaction then it wouldn't happen
        kibwen 4y ago
        This is damning with faint praise. When Clint Eastwood pulls out a gun, tosses Tuco a shovel, and tells him to start digging, that's also a positive sum transaction, but it may bode poorly for Tuco.
        4y ago
cheriot 4y ago
If this campaign gets traction, what are the odds Elon _doesn't_ run afoul of the NLRB?
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  "Was I not supposed to fire everyone I caught handing out a union card?"
pc_edwin 4y ago
[flagged]
version_five 4y ago
Ironically unionizing would probably mean many are replaced with actual robots
- mock-possum 4y ago
  Why is that?
ecf 4y ago
> The Buffalo plant has over 800 Tesla Autopilot analysts with starting pay of about $19 per hour, Bloomberg wrote. The workers are reportedly "in non-engineering roles that contribute to Tesla's automated-driving development, including by identifying objects in images its vehicles capture and helping its systems recognize them on the road." Best of luck to them but they’re in for a wake up call if they think they’re in a position of bargaining power for a job that takes maybe a day or two of training to learn.
- klyrs 4y ago
  Others have noted that Tesla got a big subsidy that requires them to employ a minimum number of workers. This appears to be an curious point of leverage. Tesla can't just shut it down to quash the union, like your Walmart or Starbucks.
- JohnnyHerz 4y ago
  If unionizing was an organic reaction to a work environment, i would be less jaded. However, in most cases, the employees don't initiate the idea of unionizing. The typical scenario involves a union organizer/s stalking the employees, often following them as they leave work in order to approach them. The union organizer is a glorified salesman promoting his product. As such, he makes it sound like being part of a union is amazing and that the employees current situation is tantamount to slave labor. Given the pressure sales pitch and one sided presentation, sheeple (employees) fall for the idea, either believing the stories that are being sold or thinking "what the heck, can't hurt anything right?." What they don't know until it's too late is how a union quickly evolves until it becomes nothing more than a way to serve a small group of union leaders so they can take advantage of a group of employees. Unions ultimately become parasites of an organization and will eventually hasten it's demise. Why have unions become so scarce (outside of government orgs)? Could it be because they end up putting their employer out of business? Are there examples of unions that are positive and contributing factors to a company's success? They are few and far between.
sturob 4y ago
An important detail that none of the reporting I've seen has mentioned: Tesla got upwards of $750 million in subsidies from the state of NY for putting the Gigafactory 2 in Buffalo. The condition was that they had to support 1460 jobs. Last I heard they were around 1500, so it's reasonable to believe the analyst jobs are only located there to avoid paying fines for breach of contract with NYS.
- mr-debil 4y ago
  This is exactly what happened. The Solar factory didn't really take off like expected so to hit that job requirement they staffed it with extremely low skill jobs. The article nicely calls them analysts but they're simple data labelers. They look at a picture, make a box around a stop sign and tell the computer that is a stop sign, then do the same with a speed limit sign, then on to the next item in the picture (curb, deer, tree, lines, etc)... then repeat the same process for the next photo. These people do not need to be in buffalo to do this job, but Tesla does need humans to do it, and primarily Americans where they understand the culture and general rules of the road.
metadat 4y ago
Does Tesla / Musk view their employees as people with their own lives, dreams, and aspirations.. or are they merely faceless resources? The answer to this question will explain a lot. Sometimes a little bit of empathy goes a long ways. Even in capitalism.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  [flagged]
wkat4242 4y ago
Kinda ironic that the people trying to automate human tasks are themselves treated as robots.

146 points by he0001 4y ago

Space Rupert is going to hate this

elif 4y ago

As someone who has only worked in "right to work" states, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek "job security" through a 3rd party agency rather than by individual performance and developing personal relationships. Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Am I just Stockholm Syndromed?

aliqot 4y ago
imo very few industries need unions, and most devolve post union integration. it seems like there's no one size fits all union model and about a million ways to turn it into a kludgy fiefdom. edit: downvote with your words you nerds
hotpotamus 4y ago
As someone who has never needed "the police" to provide physical security, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek to form governments to "provide security" rather than through individual enforcement of the law through firearm ownership.
- deleted 4y ago
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- deleted 4y ago
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- soco 4y ago
  Please please think of the Poe's law when writing such comments... we might be HN but we're humans too.
- SiempreViernes 4y ago
  I suspect this comment would benefit from adding a clarifying "/s" at the end.
- mattkevan 4y ago
  As someone who has never needed "the fire brigade" to extinguish a fire in my house, it always strikes me as absurd that people seek to form governments to "provide fire services" rather than through individual application of water through bucket ownership.
maxehmookau 4y ago
The idea that "invidivual performance and personal relationships" provides job security is a laughable idea in almost any industry. The wave of tech layoffs should've made that clear. The USA's primal hatred of unions will always blow my mind. There's power in a union my friend.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  You're talking about specific job security. He's talking about general job security (or at least seems to be based on wording). A union protects your specific job for a specific employer (or set of employers or subset of industry). Networks and reputation protect your ability to get paid for the thing you do in general. The degree to which either approach is successful is going to depend on one's industry and position/skill-set therein. Edit: This shouldn't need to be said but the above should not be construed as an endorsement of either approach.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    The latter is mostly relevant for specialist, high paid labour. I'm not in a union, but I'm also roughly in the 1%. If I was anywhere below the top 5% or so, I'd have joined a union in a heartbeat, and like commenters above I find the US resistance to unions utterly bizarre, not least because US unions were instrumental in laying the groundwork for a lot of modern labour protections, to the point of losing lives as part of those battles. Even May 1st as an international day for labour demonstrations came after a request from the AFL in part as commemoration of the Chicago Haymarket Massacre, and as a renewal of the multi-decades fight for the 8 hour working day.
  - jimnotgym 4y ago
    If ones job at Tesla is to screw on wing mirrors, how should one go about building a network and developing their reputation? A github page? Speak at conferences maybe? I wish unions were not needed too, then I hear about shitty employers exploiting poor people and I accept that unions are needed.
- elif 4y ago
  I'm not trying to say everyone that got let go is a low performer or has poor personal skills. I've seen plenty of good employees fired for bad or no reason. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that even working with a guillotine above my head feels preferable to having to pick up the slack of people coasting and not meeting their commitments.
wyldfire 4y ago
You just described collective bargaining as if it were like an individual hiring a salary negotiator. I suppose we can debate whether some jobs are better off with or without unionization but it doesn't sound like a genuine argument when you describe it that way. Sadly I think we can honestly say that the unproductive coworkers exist in many different professions and a significant drawback of unions is that they can thrive there.
cactusplant7374 4y ago
Wouldn’t Tesla build quality go up with a union that can make demands? If so, how can we say Tesla’s system is working and management isn’t unproductive and unreliable?
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  I have seen no evidence of build quality being higher in the unionized GM and Ford than the non-unionized Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda plants in the US. The opposite may even be true.
  - cactusplant7374 4y ago
    I was referring to panel gaps and other quality issues which are quite egregious with the Tesla brand.
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      Is there any evidence that Toyota (etc) have worse cosmetic panel gaps than Ford and GM? Overall, Toyota (etc) have excellent quality.
sidibe 4y ago
If there's lots of competition over labor in the area, unions aren't necessary but if there isn't much the workers need some kind of leverage that they can't achieve individually. That's when unions are useful IMO, don't know if that's the case here
iso1631 4y ago
Your individual performance may be fine when your company is small enough that your boss works for the CTO directly. When you are in a company with thousands of employees it makes no difference.
- elif 4y ago
  Job performance making no difference is my chief complaint. It leads to poor average performance which is a toxic work environment imo.
  - rtpg 4y ago
    You think all these tech layoffs are sorting by performance and slicing that way? Ignoring the fact that performance measurements are barely possible at a granular level to allow such an ordering One could argue about job perf making no difference in union shops (as if people don’t have some pride in their work since they’re spending a third of their life there and the vast majority of people are not trying to work in bad faith) but I think the implicit idea that non-union places have more than the most fat fingered and office politics dependent perf rivals is something to think about. We all know the coasting founder and the absentee manager I think that during layoffs in a union shop at least management has to think a lot harder about cuts, and how to do them.
christophilus 4y ago
Plenty of us feel the same way. Also, I hate bureaucracy. When you have a union, you have another bureaucracy to deal with. Granted, a good union is probably worth the added effort-- especially when you're in a field where the lack of a union leads to egregious abuses. I've never worked a job where a union felt like it would be a value add to me.
GAN_Game 4y ago
> Honestly a big part of why I quit my last job was too many unproductive/unreliable coworkers. Unproductive? Then you must really be exercised about the heirs who own the majority of stock, who can and often do siphon off the created wealth of those working and creating wealth, via dividend profit of expropriated surplus labor time. Oh, I see no such complaint. Just some co-workers who are "unproductive".
- abduhl 4y ago
  Why is it only the heirs? Shouldn’t your issue be with all future stockholders beyond the original founders and venture capitalists? Although I assume you’d feel similar about the venture capitalists? You wouldn’t happen to own any stocks, would you?
  - xhkkffbf 4y ago
    Don't forget that many workers end up with stock too, either via options, grants or other mechanisms. Or maybe they just buy the stock because they things going well at the company.
- leereeves 4y ago
  Have you seen the margins on businesses old enough to be owned by heirs? They're only "siphoning off" a few percent. Edit: I misunderstood. I thought the complaint was that the heirs were taking a lot of created wealth from each worker. Not simply that they were wealthy.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Those heirs are the richest people in Europe, owning everything from VW and Porsche to BMW and a bunch of other household names. And those few percent are coming off from quite huge figures...
    - leereeves 4y ago
      Yeah, the lack of new businesses is a big problem in Europe. Regulations and taxation kill them or drive them out of Europe. But I was speaking from a US perspective (since I'm from the US and this story is about the US), and our biggest, most profitable businesses are mostly under fifty years old, not over.
arlcode 4y ago
Working in Europe I have never been a member of a union but enjoy plenty of the achievements fought over in previous decades. Right now my strong market position as someone in a sought after field and with some experience under my belt I am able to negotiate an individual contract that exceeds collective bargain agreements (that's possible in most companies here). Members of my immediate family don't have that luxury. They are hardworking and diligent people at physically demanding jobs. Yet they get treated way worse than I in my cushy office job. Individually they don't have much bargaining power but as a group they can get a better outcome and negotiate eye to eye with business owners. It makes sense to carry a few underperformers with you if the benefits outweigh the costs. In the end market realities still require the company to make a profit or nobody gets paid. But there is no reason why workers/unions shouldn't demand a greater share of that profit. Look at almost any German International company for a working examples. All Auto manufacturers are heavily unionized and still manage to be innovative and make a very healthy profit. During the Euro crisis in 2008 Unions and business owners worked together to reduce hours and workforce because everyone understood the dire situation.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Considering that some "union" jobs in Germany (there are collectively negotiated terms and conditions per industry which apply to everyone working at a company covered by those conditions whether or not being an actual union member) can go up to as much 120k per year for a 40 hour work week, and increase by a couple of percent every other year so, well, those jobs are a lot more attractive than people think. Added benefit: working at rather stable companies with more or less solid financials.
quadrifoliate 4y ago
I don't think you're Stockholm Syndromed, but I definitely think you're lacking in empathy. Think about it this way -- do you think you have been always productive and reliable, 100% of the time? If not (let's say, 5% of the time you weren't), then you were the the unproductive or unreliable coworker, possibly due to factors in your life that you could not control. The idea of a union is that it insulates you from being instantly punished for factors you might not be able to control a little better than the market is doing right now. Look for news about new parents who were part of the layoffs recently. Out of "individual performance and developing personal relationships", the "developing personal relationships" part of the equation is slowly fading. When was the last time you got a job purely on the basis of your personal relationships without having to jump through hoops to show your skills? I am a little hesitant about unions too, but I'm at least willing to give them a chance based on the hack-and-slash behavior from industry leaders seeking to please their investors.
- abduhl 4y ago
  >> The idea of a union is that it insulates you from being instantly punished for factors you might not be able to control a little better than the market is doing right now (look for news about new parents who were part of the layoffs recently). Since when has this been the idea of the union? Recall that nearly all union rules are set by seniority, not personal factors like having a bad day or having a child.
  - quadrifoliate 4y ago
    > Recall that nearly all union rules are set by seniority, not personal factors like having a bad day or having a child. I'm unable to understand what you're saying here. Of course, union rules are not set by personal factors. I meant that they make it less easy to fire you for personal factors due to the heavier emphasis on due process in unionized workplaces. In most non-union workplaces in the US, you can get fired because your boss had a bad day, or (practically) if you announce that you're pregnant. The latter case is theoretically protected, but it's very hard for an average person to get an appropriate lawyer, show a pattern and sue the workplace.
  - 4y ago
mc32 4y ago
The relationship between unions and company are as tenuous and they fulfil a dual role of parasite and symbiosis where from time to time they are symbiotic to the worker while being parasitic to the company and worker at different times. In ideal conditions they would not be necessary; however, companies at times become too powerful and forget or diminish the value of their workers giving unions an in. In the end, in the US at least Unions induce inefficiencies and add drag to a company. Yes, on the one hand companies don't voluntarily want to provide more benefits than the bare minimum but on the other hand they want to avoid the straightjacket that Unions tend to bring. I'm not saying we don't need unions but I am saying they are a very uneasy relationship for all parties but the union bosses.
beanjuiceII 4y ago
I've been working along side(not in) an IT union for 15 years, what an interesting ride.. If you ever want to see how unproductive and lazy people can be this is the place!
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
  I've only ever had one union job, and ever non-union job I've been in has had about the same number of unproductive lazy people. The unproductive lazy people at the union job didn't have to kiss ass and bullshit quite as much. That's it. P.S. Oh, and we had significantly better health care benefits at the union job.
jackmott42 4y ago
The viability of your approach varies a lot depending on the type of job. For creative or technical jobs, sure. For people just on an assembly line doing boring repetitive work, you don't have those levers. Not everyone is a warrior poet who is going to network, and if we all could do that, then it wouldn't work anymore.
dhfbshfbu4u3 4y ago
Aren’t you the same person who was worried your “voluntary” retirement might be held against you when/if you look for a job?
wnkrshm 4y ago
You are in the privileged position that your employer actually needs you specifically because you aren't easily replaced. That can change over time.
nimbius 4y ago
hi, im an IAM union diesel engine mechanic and have been for over a decade. Maybe I can help explain a bit. in a 'blue collar' job like manufacturing or shipping or any of the trades like plumbing or mechanical maintenance, the only part of the business that doesnt see meaningful pushback is the labor. My job performance as a TIG welder in Texas as part of an oil and gas company was stellar, but not stellar enough to keep me from things like "mandatory overtime" and having to show up at a frigid gas field at 4 am to fix a line in chronic disrepair. part of the reason for this is a rosy picture of the rugged life of a tradesman, a misunderstanding of just how hard this work is, and a disconnected culture of leadership that see us as expendables/undesireables/expenses. Personal relationships only go so far when your op supervisor only shows up to berate you about tardiness or demand you work a weekend. The union isnt a third party agency, its you. you decide what needs fixing, what doesnt work, and what you want changed to make your job more effective and a lot of times that includes your pay. when our shop unionized we did things like reduce shop floor noise, change how overtime gets assigned and made it voluntary, and even added paternity leave (we also get a say in our healthcare and opt in or out.) We even amended the companies equal opportunity employment statement to include LGBTQ+, something leadership resisted for a long time. unions dont guarantee everyone works hard (thats culture), but they help to make sure everyone whos hired to work is treated fairly and with respect, and they fight to prevent common excesses in trade like wage theft, mandatory overtime, unfair scheduling, retaliation, and dangerous work conditions. They can push back on myopic or bad management decisions that harm customers or degrade quality. The relationship isnt perfect. strikes can and do happen but when they do its mostly for good reasons like demanding sick leave (go get em CSX railworkers!!) and health insurance we were told the free market would provide us (looking at you Starbucks.) Federal law requires good faith collective bargaining, regardless of how many hit pieces on the evening news try to spin it any other way.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  > Those CSX rail workers just didn't work hard enough, and poor struggling management can't afford to give them paid sick leave because they're just so lazy and they work too slowly to be able to take the time off. The above should be obvious as cruel sarcasm, but based on how people talk (and vote), it seems that some people genuinely believe such things.
beepbooptheory 4y ago
Maybe a little bit, but just in kinda applying that kind of high level business logic of a manager onto yourself as a person. It is really best to not worry so much on being "more productive" for your boss. You have a specific contract, which delineates how you trade your labor for money, that's it. They will make you think that your personal productivity is more than that, and yes, that your fellow workers who are less productive are somehow an obstacle to you. But you gotta realize at least deep down the bad faith in this way of thinking, even of you understandably need to act the part day to day. Even if worker solidarity isn't you're thing, just for your mental health down the line you should adjust your thinking a little bit.
RivieraKid 4y ago
The theoretical reasoning behind unions is that they counteract the market power of companies over employees. If this market power assymetry doesn't exist (for example software engineers in San Francisco), unions are not beneficial to the society but at least slightly beneficial to the average union member assuming the union is making good decisions. Because more market power is always better than less market power. It's always advantageous to be a monopoly. If you're a highly productive employee, the company doesn't have market over you, you can easily find another job. But this may be different for an average employee.
- dls2016 4y ago
  > for example software engineers in San Francisco Uhm... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
  - RivieraKid 4y ago
    Not sure what's your point.
realslimjd 4y ago
Unions can and do exist in right to work states. The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. Historically unions have been painted as extremely antagonistic towards companies in the United States, but there's no reason that has to be true. A well-run union recognizes that their survival is tied to the company's survival, and as long as both sides engage in good faith, they should reach an agreement that's mutually beneficial. To your point about job security, no one I know in unions wants to keep all employees no matter what. What people want is protection from being fired for no reason. Usually that means something like getting a PIP and six weeks to improve performance. Is that such an unreasonable ask? That way the employee has a chance to keep their job, and the company can potentially avoid the expense of hiring and training a new employee.
- kingstoned 4y ago
  The point of a union is not job security. It's about giving workers collective power they may not otherwise have. What would people do with this theoretical collective power? Probably job security combined with restrictions on work. Do as little as you can while being guaranteed a paycheck. What people want is protection from being fired for no reason. How can people be fired for no reason? There is always a reason, whether it's related to company's performance, worker productivity or overall economic conditions.
  - realslimjd 4y ago
    I feel like you missed my point that it is not in a union's interest to protect low-performing workers. A union cannot survive without jobs, and union members are just as frustrated as anyone else when someone is not pulling their weight. To your point about labor restrictions, unions gave us two day weekends and forty hour weeks. Modern labor practices are almost entirely defined by things unions fought for and standardized. The restrictions we have on work now didn't nebulously appear from the goodwill of employers. People are absolutely fired for no reason all the time. Sometimes their boss is having a bad day. Maybe their manager is prejudiced against people wearing green shirts. Sometimes people are (illegally) fired for joining a union. People are not always rational, and that doesn't change between their work and personal lives.
PeterisP 4y ago
A decent union is mostly about job conditions, not job security - collective bargaining prevents a "race to the bottom" where abusive conditions creep in due to there always being some people who'll do the job anyway. A good example is the Screen Actors Guild which imposes all kinds of minimum conditions, for example, due to which all kinds of safety issues in filming are handled quite decently (even if stuff does still happen), despite the fact that many desperate wannabe actors would easily sign a contract where they agree to whatever conditions the company imposes.
- surement 4y ago
  > conditions creep in due to there always being some people who'll do the job anyway don't worry, minimum wage laws keep those pesky people unemployed
  - mrzimmerman 4y ago
    I can’t tell if you’re against minimum wage laws or not but I’ll say regardless that minimum wage laws show a boat in worker income and small employment effects: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/844350/impacts_of_minimum_wages_review_of_the_international_evidence_Arindrajit_Dube_web.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
    - surement 4y ago
      The 5% of economists who suck up to politicians are always able to find data that shows that if you set a floor on the price of labor it somehow doesn't affect demand. The other 95%–the ones who aren't grifters–know that the only effect of minimum wage laws is unemployment for those who would otherwise make less than the price floor. This has devastating effects on teenage and young adult unemployment, and prevents those people from gaining experience, which is highly correlated with income. Everyone can already set their own price floor under which they will not work. There's zero good reason to make it illegal for people to choose their own minimum. This is third parties making the decision because they feel icky about it. No one who's ever had a low wage would've preferred to not work at all. Ask all the people e.g. who worked for $10/h before California raised the minimum wage to $15/h. When less experienced workers agree to receive less in compensation it's because they understand that they are not just being compensated financially, they are also gaining experience.
zzzeek 4y ago
this take is kind of breathtaking? There's an entire history of workers unions in the US and around the world, famous spurring events like the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory disaster, surely you aren't just waving the entire subject off as "absurd", thinking that whole factories of garment workers for example would have success via "individual performance" ? like they'd have fire exits just for the better performing workers? I can't even get my head around this take.
- wil421 4y ago
  They are comparing an office job to a back breaking trade (plumbing, metal working, electrician) or manufacturing job. Factory jobs have lots of people doing the same reparative job, individual performance only goes so far. Would the bosses really care if you are the fastest chicken skinner or bolt screwer?
- nerdponx 4y ago
  It exemplifies the "individual exceptionalism" attitude of many Americans, wherein they attribute all their successes to themselves and all their failures to external forces beyond their control.
  - zzzeek 4y ago
    yeah that's the baseline attitude of Hacker Newsers, that post went way above and beyond all that in its ignorance :)
akerl_ 4y ago
As individuals negotiating with a business, you’re always going to be at a massive disadvantage due to the balance of resources. The company is bigger than the people you’re building relationships with. Unions, done well, perform a lot of similar functions to insurance providers: they allow many people to collectively bargain in a way that can level the playing field in negotiations.
jacquesm 4y ago
Do you enjoy free Saturdays? Paternity leave? Maternity leave? A pension? Health insurance? Holidays? A 40 hour work week? A safe working environment? Workplace training programs? And so on. All of these and more are the result of unions. You by your lonesome wouldn't stand a chance negotiating all of the above with the captains of industry, no matter how rare your talents.
dfxm12 4y ago
Probably. I think you should start by understanding the workers' conditions and demands better. Your post mentions job security and puts in quotes, and yeah, that is one thing the workers mentioned, but they've talked about more, too. If you've been treated with dignity and fairly compensated for your effort at your previous jobs, that's great! Not every employer is like that, though, and no amount of personal relationships can change them. In that situation, you gotta demand it together with your fellow worker.
eunos 4y ago
Reflecting on the latest big tech lay offs. Decisions about whom were targeted were made by folks 3-4 levels above you who doesnt know you personally and even your performance might not matter to them.
jitix 4y ago
When talking about unions the focus is generally on hourly wage jobs where the skills are quite transferable and thus workers’ leverage is less. A factory worker installing bolts on a panel in some car isn’t gonna get opportunities to show “individual performance” or get to develop “personal relationships” with their supervisor who’s probably managing dozens of people In context of white collar salaries jobs, esp software engineering I agree with you 100%.
mrzimmerman 4y ago
I also live in a “right to fire for whatever” state, often referred to as “right to work” which really means the right of employers to ignore union agreements and compensate individuals less if the individual agrees to it. It’s already illegal at the federal level to force someone to be part of a union and states like ours just work harder to make sure we don’t end up collectively bargaining for better conditions by controlling the supply of our labor of which our employers are the consumers (literally basic market economics and nothing more). Your statement brings to mind this quote from Martin Niemöller, who was sympathetic to the Nazis until he witnessed the escalation and reach of their beliefs: > First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. > Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist. > Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. > Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. > —Martin Niemöller

mensetmanusman 4y ago

On the bright side, if Tesla had a union, Biden might acknowledge that they actually exist in this world.

alocasia-1 4y ago
Like he acknowledged the rail workers?
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  Going to be big trouble when the balloon workers of the world unite.

alfor 4y ago

I wouldn’t be surprised that UAW be behind that. It’s a very powerful organisation having a lot of political power. They see Tesla as a threat to their system as Tesla is the only in the US not part of it and they are doing better than all the other car companies. I know someone who saved companies from bankruptcy, usually heavy industries. When he get hired he install security cameras and other measures and after a few week usually find out that a lot of people are constantly stealing valuable materials from the company. It’s always people in the union with some friends that work on the floor. He confront them, fire them and a few months later the company become viable again. He found out that the most corrupt people are almost always in the Union organisation.

moolcool 4y ago
> they are doing better than all the other car companies By which metric? Their market cap is astronomical, but they, to be frank, don't actually make a lot of cars. Not to mention that virtually every product release is delayed ad nauseum, FSD from Tesla is both a pipe dream and a liability nightmare, and other manufacturers, both foreign and domestic, are rapidly catching up with appealing EVs.
- mc32 4y ago
  Profit per electric car[1]. They beat all competitors by a very large margin. Heh, it looks like people disagree that this is a valid metric parent was asking for or disagree that the data is valid. Oh, goodness. [1]https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-uses-its-profits-weapon-an-ev-price-war-2023-01-19/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-...
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    soecifically, tesla profitability per vehicle is 8 times that of toyota (as of Nov 2022).
    - mc32 4y ago

b34r 4y ago

They’re labelers, which are being quickly replaced by automation. This is a bid to secure their jobs long-term.

mc32 4y ago
While I get their unease.... moves like this in a Globalized economy (supported by most Unions) might just prompt Tesla (or any other) to find an overseas shop to do this work for them. It's really a lose-lose for them, in my view. They may buy themselves some temporary "relief" but it'll accelerate business propensity to find more economical alternatives.
- b34r 4y ago
  Yes and ultimately they will reduce the headcount to a fraction of current size since autolabeling will work in most scenarios. To my knowledge this has already happened… labelers now are tagging new scenarios for the autolabeler to grok for future learning passes.
  - mc32 4y ago
    I don't live or been to Western Upstate NY... but I get the feeling their mindset is still pre-80s union and have a hard time realizing the realities of working in technology or technology adjacent industries. You cannot capture an industry. If you make doing business with them more difficult than necessary, they will seek friendlier terms elsewhere. And it's a shame, Buffalo deserves a chance to integrate into the modern economy so they should take advantage of these toe-holds to attract more industry interest to the area.
b34r 4y ago
Idk why people are downvoting me, it’s 100% facts. Google “Project Vacation”
- elicash 4y ago
  I didn't downvote you, but this part describing their motivation reads as opinion, not facts: "This is a bid to secure their jobs long-term." I'm not anti-opinions, just responding to your 100% facts comment.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

bryanlarsen 4y ago

Tesla should take the initiative and bring in a co-operative German-style union or they are going to get stuck with an antagonistic UAW or similar.

SiempreViernes 4y ago
[flagged]
timecube 4y ago
This is illegal under US law.
- elicash 4y ago
  Company unions aren't permitted. But there's an element of this approach in the most recent approaches to undermining unions, where companies create groups for worker voices including ESG and DEI initiatives. I'm not saying companies doing this is necessarily bad, just being descriptive about that at least part of the motivation is to undermine union organizing, as even corporate lobbying groups describe it: https://theintercept.com/2022/06/07/union-busting-tactics-diversity/ https://theintercept.com/2022/06/07/union-busting-tactics-di... https://www.levernews.com/fear-and-loathing-among-the-union-busters/ https://www.levernews.com/fear-and-loathing-among-the-union-... As far as whatever is done in Germany, I can't speak to that since it's outside my area of knowledge.
- kranke155 4y ago
  When / how ?
  - elicash 4y ago
    They are referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_union
elicash 4y ago
This is actually the same union that Starbucks workers are organizing with -- Workers United, which is an SEIU affiliate. I wonder if the Starbucks workers in Buffalo are helping this group of workers out. Also, here's what their website says about whether they are anti-Tesla: > No! We are pro-Tesla and pro-union. We want to work at Tesla and make it our career. We want Tesla to be the best it can be and a place where we can have successful and sustainable careers. If we didn't care about the company we wouldn't be putting this work into changing it for the better. https://tesla-workers-united.squarespace.com/faq https://tesla-workers-united.squarespace.com/faq

concordDance 4y ago

They trying to encourage Tesla abandoning that plant? The lure of more factories China (or even Texas) is hard enough to resist as it is.

NoblePublius 4y ago

LOL they’re office workers who “label data”. Meanwhile the factory workers all have seven figure options grants and aren’t interested.

elicash 4y ago
Considering their work is keeping people from being driven straight into trees and other cars, I don't know why you'd laugh at what their job consists of. But yes, the article mentions that Tesla has been working on auto-labeling for years and it's interesting tech that I hope is successful because it could improve safety.
andruby 4y ago
> the factory workers all have seven figure options grants I would genuinely like to see a citation for that. That's wonderful if true, but probably too expensive to be real.

ajross 4y ago

Not that it matters much as a matter of labor policy, but the factory in question is Gigafactory 2, which is a photovoltaic cell fab that employs (per Wikipedia) 1500 people. They make the roofing products, not cars or batteries.

elicash 4y ago
Per Bloomberg, this is specifically regarding a group of workers who "label data for Tesla’s Autopilot technology."
Rebelgecko 4y ago
Some reading about the factory - https://www.investigativepost.org/2023/01/11/teslas-solar-factory-in-buffalo-fizzles/ https://www.investigativepost.org/2023/01/11/teslas-solar-fa...

jakelazaroff 4y ago

> Workers at the Buffalo plant told Bloomberg that Tesla tracks their computer keystrokes to monitor how they work, prompting some employees to refrain from taking bathroom breaks. It’s honestly kind of mind boggling that this is even legal.

kibwen 4y ago
In the absence of labor regulation, employment sprints in the direction of slavery.
- junofan 4y ago
  Keyloggers are nothing like chattel slavery. Melodramatic comparisons make labor advocates sound unreasonable. It’s fine to push for less intrusive performance monitoring on its own merits.
  - kibwen 4y ago
    Rather, the point is to illustrate how the default state of the employer-employee relationship is to be as unfavorable to the employee as the employer can get away with, where slavery is merely the extreme end of the scale that employers aspire to.
    - surement 4y ago
      if the "employer-employee relationship" was not a positive sum transaction then it wouldn't happen
      - kibwen 4y ago
        This is damning with faint praise. When Clint Eastwood pulls out a gun, tosses Tuco a shovel, and tells him to start digging, that's also a positive sum transaction, but it may bode poorly for Tuco.
        4y ago

cheriot 4y ago

If this campaign gets traction, what are the odds Elon _doesn't_ run afoul of the NLRB?

ceejayoz 4y ago
"Was I not supposed to fire everyone I caught handing out a union card?"

pc_edwin 4y ago

[flagged]

version_five 4y ago

Ironically unionizing would probably mean many are replaced with actual robots

mock-possum 4y ago
Why is that?

ecf 4y ago

> The Buffalo plant has over 800 Tesla Autopilot analysts with starting pay of about $19 per hour, Bloomberg wrote. The workers are reportedly "in non-engineering roles that contribute to Tesla's automated-driving development, including by identifying objects in images its vehicles capture and helping its systems recognize them on the road." Best of luck to them but they’re in for a wake up call if they think they’re in a position of bargaining power for a job that takes maybe a day or two of training to learn.

klyrs 4y ago
Others have noted that Tesla got a big subsidy that requires them to employ a minimum number of workers. This appears to be an curious point of leverage. Tesla can't just shut it down to quash the union, like your Walmart or Starbucks.
JohnnyHerz 4y ago
If unionizing was an organic reaction to a work environment, i would be less jaded. However, in most cases, the employees don't initiate the idea of unionizing. The typical scenario involves a union organizer/s stalking the employees, often following them as they leave work in order to approach them. The union organizer is a glorified salesman promoting his product. As such, he makes it sound like being part of a union is amazing and that the employees current situation is tantamount to slave labor. Given the pressure sales pitch and one sided presentation, sheeple (employees) fall for the idea, either believing the stories that are being sold or thinking "what the heck, can't hurt anything right?." What they don't know until it's too late is how a union quickly evolves until it becomes nothing more than a way to serve a small group of union leaders so they can take advantage of a group of employees. Unions ultimately become parasites of an organization and will eventually hasten it's demise. Why have unions become so scarce (outside of government orgs)? Could it be because they end up putting their employer out of business? Are there examples of unions that are positive and contributing factors to a company's success? They are few and far between.

sturob 4y ago

An important detail that none of the reporting I've seen has mentioned: Tesla got upwards of $750 million in subsidies from the state of NY for putting the Gigafactory 2 in Buffalo. The condition was that they had to support 1460 jobs. Last I heard they were around 1500, so it's reasonable to believe the analyst jobs are only located there to avoid paying fines for breach of contract with NYS.

mr-debil 4y ago
This is exactly what happened. The Solar factory didn't really take off like expected so to hit that job requirement they staffed it with extremely low skill jobs. The article nicely calls them analysts but they're simple data labelers. They look at a picture, make a box around a stop sign and tell the computer that is a stop sign, then do the same with a speed limit sign, then on to the next item in the picture (curb, deer, tree, lines, etc)... then repeat the same process for the next photo. These people do not need to be in buffalo to do this job, but Tesla does need humans to do it, and primarily Americans where they understand the culture and general rules of the road.

metadat 4y ago

Does Tesla / Musk view their employees as people with their own lives, dreams, and aspirations.. or are they merely faceless resources? The answer to this question will explain a lot. Sometimes a little bit of empathy goes a long ways. Even in capitalism.

JohnFen 4y ago
[flagged]

wkat4242 4y ago

Kinda ironic that the people trying to automate human tasks are themselves treated as robots.