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Suddenly so many people are actually pacifists, yeah I don't buy it either. And in their anti Western hatred they are willing to sacrifice a sovereign state to

Suddenly so many people are actually pacifists, yeah I don't buy it either. And in their anti Western hatred they are willing to sacrifice a sovereign state to a Russian invasion. A question I pose to these people- after Ukraine what other land is Putin allowed to grab?

redeeman 4y ago
heres the deal: not intervening is not the same thing as agreeing. Not wanting to throw gasoline on the fire is not the same as thinking the fire is great, or having put it in the first place.
- glogla 4y ago
  I like how you refer to people being able to defend from being enslaved and murdered as "throwing gasoline on the fire". If I started torturing and killing your family, would you let me do it because trying to stop is throwing gasoline on the fire? Just how inhuman can you people be?
  - imtringued 4y ago
    Also, Russia repeatedly invaded Poland with two other allies (Prussia, Austria) and divided it three times and the polish didn't get their country back by being nice. (I didn't even talk about ww2).
  - redeeman 4y ago
    and I would wish these things didnt happen. I ask you now. Are more people dying by us throwing weapons there? can ukraine win? so far the answer appears to be, yes, more people are dying, and no. Ukraine cannot win. What happens when ukraine runs out of soldiers to carry the shit we send there? will YOU take their place? just how inhuman can you be, after all? and if russia wins, how many died that wouldnt have needed to. how inhuman can we be then? or is it then fine that they died?
- bootsmann 4y ago
  This is a trolley problem, the train is on the track to genocide and oppression of 40 million people with the other track being uncertain and you're standing here arguing that we should not touch the lever and that this position is somehow radically distinct from some other guy who is arguing that we shouldn't flip the lever. It might work for your conscience but if we put either of you in charge the outcome for those 40 million people is functionally the same. Distinct maybe, different no.
hackandthink 4y ago
I do not support any party in this war, though I'm not really pacifist. It's not worth dying for NATO membership or an ukrainian Crimea. And nobody should be forced to fight in any war. It is about cost/benefit. If Ukraine would tell: We are looking for a compromise (no NATO membership, Crimea belongs to Russia, ...), I could change my mind and support them. If Russia would invade another country there's a new cost/benefit ratio. And I think Russia will not invade any western country. I live in Germany and I'm not scared of Russia. They (Soviet Union actually) left East Germany peacefully.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > It is about cost/benefit. This is truer then you know, the world must make the cost of Russia trying to take over another country so expensive both financially and militarily that they do not try this again. Don't forget Ukraine is not the first, Russia has invaded and sometimes even entirely annexed countries in the past. > If Ukraine would tell: We are looking for a compromise (no NATO membership, Crimea belongs to Russia, ...), I could change my mind and support them. Ukraines mere existence is what upsets Russia, it's the reason for this war. It has nothing to do with Crimea and nothing to do with NATO. Russia wants all of Ukraine, they want to subjugate them completely.
  - hackandthink 4y ago
    Maybe I'm wrong. But I think John Mearsheimer got it right in 2014: "Next, Putin put massive pressure on the new government in Kiev to discourage it from siding with the West against Moscow, making it clear that he would wreck Ukraine as a functioning state before he would allow it to become a Western stronghold on Russia’s doorstep." This is happening now. "Russia wants all of Ukraine, they want to subjugate them completely." I don't think so. Russia annexed the territory it really wants. If Ukraine demilitarizes they would make a deal. https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-t...
    - trasz3 4y ago

redeeman 4y ago

heres the deal: not intervening is not the same thing as agreeing. Not wanting to throw gasoline on the fire is not the same as thinking the fire is great, or having put it in the first place.

glogla 4y ago
I like how you refer to people being able to defend from being enslaved and murdered as "throwing gasoline on the fire". If I started torturing and killing your family, would you let me do it because trying to stop is throwing gasoline on the fire? Just how inhuman can you people be?
- imtringued 4y ago
  Also, Russia repeatedly invaded Poland with two other allies (Prussia, Austria) and divided it three times and the polish didn't get their country back by being nice. (I didn't even talk about ww2).
- redeeman 4y ago
  and I would wish these things didnt happen. I ask you now. Are more people dying by us throwing weapons there? can ukraine win? so far the answer appears to be, yes, more people are dying, and no. Ukraine cannot win. What happens when ukraine runs out of soldiers to carry the shit we send there? will YOU take their place? just how inhuman can you be, after all? and if russia wins, how many died that wouldnt have needed to. how inhuman can we be then? or is it then fine that they died?
bootsmann 4y ago
This is a trolley problem, the train is on the track to genocide and oppression of 40 million people with the other track being uncertain and you're standing here arguing that we should not touch the lever and that this position is somehow radically distinct from some other guy who is arguing that we shouldn't flip the lever. It might work for your conscience but if we put either of you in charge the outcome for those 40 million people is functionally the same. Distinct maybe, different no.

hackandthink 4y ago

I do not support any party in this war, though I'm not really pacifist. It's not worth dying for NATO membership or an ukrainian Crimea. And nobody should be forced to fight in any war. It is about cost/benefit. If Ukraine would tell: We are looking for a compromise (no NATO membership, Crimea belongs to Russia, ...), I could change my mind and support them. If Russia would invade another country there's a new cost/benefit ratio. And I think Russia will not invade any western country. I live in Germany and I'm not scared of Russia. They (Soviet Union actually) left East Germany peacefully.

_kbh_ 4y ago
> It is about cost/benefit. This is truer then you know, the world must make the cost of Russia trying to take over another country so expensive both financially and militarily that they do not try this again. Don't forget Ukraine is not the first, Russia has invaded and sometimes even entirely annexed countries in the past. > If Ukraine would tell: We are looking for a compromise (no NATO membership, Crimea belongs to Russia, ...), I could change my mind and support them. Ukraines mere existence is what upsets Russia, it's the reason for this war. It has nothing to do with Crimea and nothing to do with NATO. Russia wants all of Ukraine, they want to subjugate them completely.
- hackandthink 4y ago
  Maybe I'm wrong. But I think John Mearsheimer got it right in 2014: "Next, Putin put massive pressure on the new government in Kiev to discourage it from siding with the West against Moscow, making it clear that he would wreck Ukraine as a functioning state before he would allow it to become a Western stronghold on Russia’s doorstep." This is happening now. "Russia wants all of Ukraine, they want to subjugate them completely." I don't think so. Russia annexed the territory it really wants. If Ukraine demilitarizes they would make a deal. https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-t...
  - trasz3 4y ago