5 ms·

So yeah, they're just going to force us all to RTO because pretty much every single company is going to collectively decide to bully everyone into doing it, unt

So yeah, they're just going to force us all to RTO because pretty much every single company is going to collectively decide to bully everyone into doing it, until there's hardly any companies left doing it, and certainly not enough for the demand for it since the pandemic. Great, just great. Might be almost time to start looking into freelancing again.

robbintt 4y ago
This is going to drive salaries up in the hubs again.
jstx1 4y ago
Freelancing isn't exactly stable and reliable either.
eikenberry 4y ago
I'd suggest, if you're looking, to take a job at a company that is remote first. Skip all these companies that are "allowing it" and go for the ones that make it a selling point. A company saying they are remote first with little office space should insulate you from these sorts of shenanigans.
- aledalgrande 4y ago
  This. I worked at companies that are "remote" and their solution is to have 254 Zoom meetings per day.
evo_9 4y ago
No they’re not; some of us have become managers during all this and won’t stand for it. Not to mention we’ve hired quite a few out-of-state resources and simply can’t afford to lose them. Some shitty companies will pursue this but the smart companies will stay the course and hire away their talent. It’s a competitive advantage and companies need to view it that way or suffer. Also - this will now provide us with a very simple test, is this a shitty company that does not truly value its employees, or are they one of the good ones worthy of my attention.
- operatingthetan 4y ago
  My question about these policies is are they actually applying them to everyone in the org, or is there a political mess of exceptions and 'key people' who can muscle their way out of the requirement? It seems like a lot of the recent layoffs are intended to give an attitude check to those who think they are essential, but surely these businesses actually have essential teams and specific engineers that would harm the org if they left?
  - datavirtue 4y ago
    Yes. At GE (yes, the real GE Aviation that still exists) we just said "Yessa master" and then ignored the three day per week in-office "requirement." The managers (directors and lower C-levels) in the trenches had zero interest in enforcing it. Though, that place is a den of malicious compliance throughout. Just nod, and then do what you want. No need to keep bringing it up.
    - operatingthetan 4y ago
      I agree that some of these instances won't have teeth. I think for companies who already have aggressive attrition policies like Microsoft, Amazon, and perhaps Walmart they will though. Long before covid I did the same thing, I just started working from home and got some flak for it, but it never entered into my performance equation and I remained employed there.
    - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
      Apple is giving verbal notices for not complying 3 days RTO, I heard on blind. Here, HR is forcing the attrition: either come 3 days to office or quit.
      - User23 4y ago
        Everyone’s situation is different, but I know people at a big tech company you’ve heard of who are infamous for being, well, kind of assholes, who when given a similar offer by HR have said no I’m not coming to the office and no I’m not quitting and that has worked for over a year so far. Of course that’s all predicated on your manager wanting to keep you and at least somewhat go to bat for you. Otherwise I expect it’ll lead to dismissal rather rapidly.
xdfgh1112 4y ago
As a lifetime remote dev it does kind of suck. People have been let in on my secret and now jobs have reduced, it'll be a lot more competitive. On the other hand remote allows you to work for other countries. So there are still options if your cost of living is low.
- Mountain_Skies 4y ago
  At a previous job, we seemed to have had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it came to remote workers logging in from outside of their home country. Then we had a member of the infosec team start logging in from a war zone and the policy suddenly because crystal clear that logins would only be accepted from the employee's home country unless permission was granted ahead of time and programmed into the VPN.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    I've seen folks solve for this by VPNing into a family member's residential connection in an acceptable (to the business) jurisdiction before connecting to the corp VPN. Risk tolerance decision. Like having to VPN home so Netflix doesn't take your password sharing away. I make no judgement either way on the topic; I'm simply speaking in technical capability terms. Edit: @Aeolun https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10zvbgf/ysk_that_you_can_set_up_a_free_vpn_server_on_your https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10zvbgf/ysk_... (from a quick google search vs an in thread explanation)
    - bobleeswagger 4y ago
      > Netflix doesn't take your password sharing away That's a weird way to frame Netflix enforcing the ToS users like you agreed to.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - datavirtue 4y ago
daseiner1 4y ago
I'd have to agree. If you're not more interested in working as a genuine team member than as a glorified anonymous contributor you should look into freelancing
whateveracct 4y ago
There were plenty of remote jobs before the pandemic. I'm sure that will continue.
linkjuice4all 4y ago
Some of these companies have been "bullied" by the tax-receiving cities that they're based in. I hate commuting and getting interrupted by co-workers in the office as much as the next person but this change in working style has had a negative impact on the business that used to service office workers. With the change in interest rates (let's not forget Jeremy Powell wants to use unemployment to cool inflation [0]), layoffs, and return to office mandates it seems like employees are losing the war. I really hope that companies that aren't saddled with real estate and rental costs of having an office can continue to offer remote work - after all they have fewer costs and can draw from a larger pool of employees. Management be damned - many people don't need to drive (and waste gas) just to sit in the same place at the same time as some other people. [0] https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-rates-workers/ https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-...
- pinewurst 4y ago
  While it's true that "this change in working style has had a negative impact on the business that used to service office workers", it's not my personal cross to bear by enduring an obnoxious commute.
lolinder 4y ago
No, companies are going to stabilize on one or the other. Just the other day GitHub announced they were closing all office space. Remote work isn't ending, what's ending is companies having ambiguous temporary remote work policies. They're either coming down hard for or against.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  This is good. Pretty much everyone has a preference one way or the other. No one like it mixed.
Xorakios 4y ago
It is generally illegally to freelance in California unless you're a journalist or an actor
BurningFrog 4y ago
Time will tell how well this remote work experiment works. If it works well, it will grow and evolve, if not it will fade away.
- eat 4y ago
  I got my first remote job in 2011. Whatever is going on right now has very little to do with what works, and what doesn't.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    I created my own in 2004
ergvgdvgrd 4y ago
Only if they can all simultaneously execute the cooperation strategy of the Prisoner's Dilema. Meanwhe every corporation that defects gets to pick from the pool of remote workers with _reduced_ competition from the corporations choosing the "cooperate" strategy.

robbintt 4y ago

This is going to drive salaries up in the hubs again.

jstx1 4y ago

Freelancing isn't exactly stable and reliable either.

eikenberry 4y ago

I'd suggest, if you're looking, to take a job at a company that is remote first. Skip all these companies that are "allowing it" and go for the ones that make it a selling point. A company saying they are remote first with little office space should insulate you from these sorts of shenanigans.

aledalgrande 4y ago
This. I worked at companies that are "remote" and their solution is to have 254 Zoom meetings per day.

evo_9 4y ago

No they’re not; some of us have become managers during all this and won’t stand for it. Not to mention we’ve hired quite a few out-of-state resources and simply can’t afford to lose them. Some shitty companies will pursue this but the smart companies will stay the course and hire away their talent. It’s a competitive advantage and companies need to view it that way or suffer. Also - this will now provide us with a very simple test, is this a shitty company that does not truly value its employees, or are they one of the good ones worthy of my attention.

operatingthetan 4y ago
My question about these policies is are they actually applying them to everyone in the org, or is there a political mess of exceptions and 'key people' who can muscle their way out of the requirement? It seems like a lot of the recent layoffs are intended to give an attitude check to those who think they are essential, but surely these businesses actually have essential teams and specific engineers that would harm the org if they left?
- datavirtue 4y ago
  Yes. At GE (yes, the real GE Aviation that still exists) we just said "Yessa master" and then ignored the three day per week in-office "requirement." The managers (directors and lower C-levels) in the trenches had zero interest in enforcing it. Though, that place is a den of malicious compliance throughout. Just nod, and then do what you want. No need to keep bringing it up.
  - operatingthetan 4y ago
    I agree that some of these instances won't have teeth. I think for companies who already have aggressive attrition policies like Microsoft, Amazon, and perhaps Walmart they will though. Long before covid I did the same thing, I just started working from home and got some flak for it, but it never entered into my performance equation and I remained employed there.
  - perfecthjrjth 4y ago
    Apple is giving verbal notices for not complying 3 days RTO, I heard on blind. Here, HR is forcing the attrition: either come 3 days to office or quit.
    - User23 4y ago
      Everyone’s situation is different, but I know people at a big tech company you’ve heard of who are infamous for being, well, kind of assholes, who when given a similar offer by HR have said no I’m not coming to the office and no I’m not quitting and that has worked for over a year so far. Of course that’s all predicated on your manager wanting to keep you and at least somewhat go to bat for you. Otherwise I expect it’ll lead to dismissal rather rapidly.

xdfgh1112 4y ago

As a lifetime remote dev it does kind of suck. People have been let in on my secret and now jobs have reduced, it'll be a lot more competitive. On the other hand remote allows you to work for other countries. So there are still options if your cost of living is low.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago
At a previous job, we seemed to have had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it came to remote workers logging in from outside of their home country. Then we had a member of the infosec team start logging in from a war zone and the policy suddenly because crystal clear that logins would only be accepted from the employee's home country unless permission was granted ahead of time and programmed into the VPN.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  I've seen folks solve for this by VPNing into a family member's residential connection in an acceptable (to the business) jurisdiction before connecting to the corp VPN. Risk tolerance decision. Like having to VPN home so Netflix doesn't take your password sharing away. I make no judgement either way on the topic; I'm simply speaking in technical capability terms. Edit: @Aeolun https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10zvbgf/ysk_that_you_can_set_up_a_free_vpn_server_on_your https://old.reddit.com/r/YouShouldKnow/comments/10zvbgf/ysk_... (from a quick google search vs an in thread explanation)
  - bobleeswagger 4y ago
    > Netflix doesn't take your password sharing away That's a weird way to frame Netflix enforcing the ToS users like you agreed to.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - datavirtue 4y ago

daseiner1 4y ago

I'd have to agree. If you're not more interested in working as a genuine team member than as a glorified anonymous contributor you should look into freelancing

whateveracct 4y ago

There were plenty of remote jobs before the pandemic. I'm sure that will continue.

linkjuice4all 4y ago

Some of these companies have been "bullied" by the tax-receiving cities that they're based in. I hate commuting and getting interrupted by co-workers in the office as much as the next person but this change in working style has had a negative impact on the business that used to service office workers. With the change in interest rates (let's not forget Jeremy Powell wants to use unemployment to cool inflation [0]), layoffs, and return to office mandates it seems like employees are losing the war. I really hope that companies that aren't saddled with real estate and rental costs of having an office can continue to offer remote work - after all they have fewer costs and can draw from a larger pool of employees. Management be damned - many people don't need to drive (and waste gas) just to sit in the same place at the same time as some other people. [0] https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-rates-workers/ https://time.com/6253699/federal-reserve-inflation-interest-...

pinewurst 4y ago
While it's true that "this change in working style has had a negative impact on the business that used to service office workers", it's not my personal cross to bear by enduring an obnoxious commute.

lolinder 4y ago

No, companies are going to stabilize on one or the other. Just the other day GitHub announced they were closing all office space. Remote work isn't ending, what's ending is companies having ambiguous temporary remote work policies. They're either coming down hard for or against.

Gigachad 4y ago
This is good. Pretty much everyone has a preference one way or the other. No one like it mixed.

Xorakios 4y ago

It is generally illegally to freelance in California unless you're a journalist or an actor

BurningFrog 4y ago

Time will tell how well this remote work experiment works. If it works well, it will grow and evolve, if not it will fade away.

eat 4y ago
I got my first remote job in 2011. Whatever is going on right now has very little to do with what works, and what doesn't.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  I created my own in 2004

ergvgdvgrd 4y ago

Only if they can all simultaneously execute the cooperation strategy of the Prisoner's Dilema. Meanwhe every corporation that defects gets to pick from the pool of remote workers with _reduced_ competition from the corporations choosing the "cooperate" strategy.