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This is exactly why. We've been at our administrators for years and the response always is "the bus routes" but in reality it's because of the sports schedules.

This is exactly why. We've been at our administrators for years and the response always is "the bus routes" but in reality it's because of the sports schedules. High school sports is a drain on the educational system, plain and simple. It lacks equity - an disproportionate amount of money is spent on very few children. The football coach in our HS has a Vice Principal title, so he doesn't have to teach classes but knocks down $100K+ to run the team. There are maybe 120 kids in the football program, in a high school of 2000. If you look at Europe, sports clubs are run by outside groups and happen after school on their own resources. I'd love to see that here. I mean, we do have year-round club teams and that's another problem. Too many parents overload their kids with sports either because they're living through their kids, or they think it's a shot at a college scholarship. It burns the kids out and rarely turns into anything profitable.

boringg 4y ago
It's weird to discuss children as turning them into something profitable
- joezydeco 4y ago
  When college costs six figures, you hope to break even. And that's a whole different ball of wax in America.
  - geraldwhen 4y ago
    Most state universities cost nothing near this, especially if you discount room and board. You need to live somewhere and eat, so it’s not sensible to include those costs with the cost of college.
    - Riseed 4y ago
      While students need somewhere to sleep and eat, the cost of doing so on campus are much higher than anywhere else (in my limited experience). For example, the cost of on-campus room and board my junior year was 4x the cost of my off-campus room and board the following year. Some schools don't allow for off-campus housing for some or all students, or still require commuters to purchase a meal plan. So perhaps while it's not sensible to include all room and board costs with the cost of college, it's definitely fair to include some or even most.
      - geraldwhen 4y ago
        Non big city schools aren’t a 4x multiple or even 2x. And most schools aren’t in New England. And most schools don’t require dorming, especially for all 3/4 years. The average student loan debt for a graduating undergrad is 23k. If college costs were truly 100k that just wouldn’t be the case. Edit: median
        Riseed 4y ago
        Obviously I didn't go to most schools. But none I attended were in a big city, and none were in New England, so it's not just a "big city" or "New England" problem. Regardless, I have never personally seen an example of on-campus room and board being <= off-campus room and board. > The [median] student loan debt for a graduating undergrad is 23k. If college costs were truly 100k that just wouldn’t be the case. I fail to see how that necessarily follows because: - many students and families save for college, so there's a cash downpayment - many students work to cover part of college costs - many families work to cover part of college costs But this seems an unproductive rabbit trail from the issue of letting kids get their sleep.
- jandrese 4y ago
  That's the entire purpose of the school system. To make them into workers that can produce value for companies.
  - ajmurmann 4y ago
    Having an educated electorate is a goal as well, at least in some places in the world.
  - dkqmduems 4y ago
    Can't have them read Marx in high school. Everything would collapse.
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      Doubtful. They read Orwell and Huxley and based on the state of the world those lessons don't appear to stick.
      - myko 4y ago
        True, most folks don't even realize Orwell was a Democratic Socialist.
SoftTalker 4y ago
Private sports outside of school are too expensive for all but the well-off families. School sports are basically free for the participants, and they are good for kids' social development and physical health. Sports keeps many kids in high school, certainly if my oldest hadn't had cross-country and track he probably would have dropped out.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  That's another difference between Europe and the US. When I grew up in Germany there was a huge amount of sports available that were taught by volunteers. Soccer, judo, karate all for free even in the rural area I grew up in. I wonder if it's possible because everyone isn't constantly threatened by looming bankruptcy if they don't save big piles of cash.
  - mjfl 4y ago
    The parent comment was a little misleading. In the US there is a ton of sports available for every student to join. Really the only people who don't play sports are those who don't want to.
    - alistairSH 4y ago
      Correct. I used to coach youth sports. There were waivers and “scholarships” available. Equipment was provided by the club (this was football and basketball). Coaches and other parents did the transport.
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    Thank you to share about your childhood experience. This part: I wonder if it's possible because everyone isn't constantly threatened by looming bankruptcy if they don't save big piles of cash. I'm confused. What does it mean?
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      I assume they are referring to lack of a safety net, though I don't know what in particular that has to do with volunteering to coach youth sports.
raincole 4y ago
After reading all of these I still think it's "the bus routes", or more generally speaking, "the commuting". I grew up in an asian country and my parents never picked me up after I was 10. I just took buses from home to school and then from school to home. I'm not saying our system is better than the US, but it's a bit of culture shock that everyone commutes in their (parents') cars there.
- katbyte 4y ago
  Canada, I started finding my own way to and from school around 10 too
- gnarbarian 4y ago
  I'd wager the public transit is safer in your country.
  - stonogo 4y ago
    Safer than, say, Baltimore, which uses the same system?
    - worstestes 4y ago
      Ah yes, Baltimore, the epitome of public transportation infrastructure
      - stonogo 4y ago
        Way to shoot down an argument nobody was making. OP referred to safe, which Baltimore isn't, and yet kids take the public buses as the primary transit to and from school all over the city for the past several decades.
        gnarbarian 4y ago
        You know, now that I think about it. I bet the school buses aren't very safe in Baltimore either.
anthomtb 4y ago
Does what you are saying about sports also apply to theater and music?
- jesterman 4y ago
  Is a disproportionate amount of money spent on very few children for theater and music?
  - soperj 4y ago
    Yes?
  - anthomtb 4y ago
    Not where I grew up. Sports teams, theater and music programs were all funded equally. All extracurriculars came with fees and fundraisers. One of the gym teachers, also the basketball coach, was useless if the team was likely to make a playoff run. One of the English teachers, the theater director, was equally useless during the weeks leading up to a performance. I thought the GGP was being unfair to athletics. Scholastic athletics are a necessary outlet for a lot of kids, as are theater and music. If you are going to do away with one of them, do away with all of it. Maybe in certain areas of the USA (Texas, the deep south) you get an excess of public money going to athletics, in which case GGP has a valid point. But that wasn't my experience.
    - freetime2 4y ago
      And in a country where 69% of adults are overweight, and 36% are obese [1], I would like to see even more emphasis on physical education (including after-school sports) rather than less. [1] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-trends-original/obesity-rates-worldwide/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesi...
      - jrumbut 4y ago
        I've come to see obesity and our production of elite athletes as two sides of the same coin. When I was in high school my baseball and football practices were 2-3 hours long and I would be exhausted and wheezing by the end of them. I have a knee injury from freshman year that still bothers me 20 years later. That's an insane time and energy commitment, I see why a lot of kids end up doing nothing. I'd like to see more options that are lower intensity, don't require a commitment, and meet kids where they're at fitness level-wise.
freetime2 4y ago
> The football coach in our HS has a Vice Principal title, so he doesn't have to teach classes but knocks down $100K+ to run the team Presumably being Vice Principal carries other responsibilities beyond just coaching football. For perspective, the Vice Principal at my high school didn’t teach classes OR coach any sports - being Vice Principal is a full-time position on its own. And this was in a school with far fewer than 2000 students.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  I'll bet your vice principal could teach classes, and used to teach classes before being promoted. They may even do so occasionally, if a teacher is unexpectedly sick. My school's vice principal taught two class, so about 4 hours a week IIRC. I'll also bet that's unlikely to be the case for the football coach.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    Best history teacher I ever had was a guy who's "real career" was coaching.
kerpotgh 4y ago
[dead]
poulsbohemian 4y ago
> sports clubs are run by outside groups and happen after school on their own resources I'm sorry, I don't get your argument here... in your first sentence you say school sports harms equity, but then you advocate for private sports clubs - which in my poor district would mean a whole lot of kids not able to participate without the publicly-provided funding of those public school activities. School sports, music, theater, etc is the equity that wouldn't be otherwise available if we all moved to privatized education, clubs, etc. Which is not to say if those clubs are available in your community and you can afford them, good for you and your kids.

boringg 4y ago

It's weird to discuss children as turning them into something profitable

joezydeco 4y ago
When college costs six figures, you hope to break even. And that's a whole different ball of wax in America.
- geraldwhen 4y ago
  Most state universities cost nothing near this, especially if you discount room and board. You need to live somewhere and eat, so it’s not sensible to include those costs with the cost of college.
  - Riseed 4y ago
    While students need somewhere to sleep and eat, the cost of doing so on campus are much higher than anywhere else (in my limited experience). For example, the cost of on-campus room and board my junior year was 4x the cost of my off-campus room and board the following year. Some schools don't allow for off-campus housing for some or all students, or still require commuters to purchase a meal plan. So perhaps while it's not sensible to include all room and board costs with the cost of college, it's definitely fair to include some or even most.
    - geraldwhen 4y ago
      Non big city schools aren’t a 4x multiple or even 2x. And most schools aren’t in New England. And most schools don’t require dorming, especially for all 3/4 years. The average student loan debt for a graduating undergrad is 23k. If college costs were truly 100k that just wouldn’t be the case. Edit: median
      - Riseed 4y ago
        Obviously I didn't go to most schools. But none I attended were in a big city, and none were in New England, so it's not just a "big city" or "New England" problem. Regardless, I have never personally seen an example of on-campus room and board being <= off-campus room and board. > The [median] student loan debt for a graduating undergrad is 23k. If college costs were truly 100k that just wouldn’t be the case. I fail to see how that necessarily follows because: - many students and families save for college, so there's a cash downpayment - many students work to cover part of college costs - many families work to cover part of college costs But this seems an unproductive rabbit trail from the issue of letting kids get their sleep.
jandrese 4y ago
That's the entire purpose of the school system. To make them into workers that can produce value for companies.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  Having an educated electorate is a goal as well, at least in some places in the world.
- dkqmduems 4y ago
  Can't have them read Marx in high school. Everything would collapse.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    Doubtful. They read Orwell and Huxley and based on the state of the world those lessons don't appear to stick.
    - myko 4y ago
      True, most folks don't even realize Orwell was a Democratic Socialist.

SoftTalker 4y ago

Private sports outside of school are too expensive for all but the well-off families. School sports are basically free for the participants, and they are good for kids' social development and physical health. Sports keeps many kids in high school, certainly if my oldest hadn't had cross-country and track he probably would have dropped out.

ajmurmann 4y ago
That's another difference between Europe and the US. When I grew up in Germany there was a huge amount of sports available that were taught by volunteers. Soccer, judo, karate all for free even in the rural area I grew up in. I wonder if it's possible because everyone isn't constantly threatened by looming bankruptcy if they don't save big piles of cash.
- mjfl 4y ago
  The parent comment was a little misleading. In the US there is a ton of sports available for every student to join. Really the only people who don't play sports are those who don't want to.
  - alistairSH 4y ago
    Correct. I used to coach youth sports. There were waivers and “scholarships” available. Equipment was provided by the club (this was football and basketball). Coaches and other parents did the transport.
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  Thank you to share about your childhood experience. This part: I wonder if it's possible because everyone isn't constantly threatened by looming bankruptcy if they don't save big piles of cash. I'm confused. What does it mean?
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    I assume they are referring to lack of a safety net, though I don't know what in particular that has to do with volunteering to coach youth sports.

raincole 4y ago

After reading all of these I still think it's "the bus routes", or more generally speaking, "the commuting". I grew up in an asian country and my parents never picked me up after I was 10. I just took buses from home to school and then from school to home. I'm not saying our system is better than the US, but it's a bit of culture shock that everyone commutes in their (parents') cars there.

katbyte 4y ago
Canada, I started finding my own way to and from school around 10 too
gnarbarian 4y ago
I'd wager the public transit is safer in your country.
- stonogo 4y ago
  Safer than, say, Baltimore, which uses the same system?
  - worstestes 4y ago
    Ah yes, Baltimore, the epitome of public transportation infrastructure
    - stonogo 4y ago
      Way to shoot down an argument nobody was making. OP referred to safe, which Baltimore isn't, and yet kids take the public buses as the primary transit to and from school all over the city for the past several decades.
      - gnarbarian 4y ago
        You know, now that I think about it. I bet the school buses aren't very safe in Baltimore either.

anthomtb 4y ago

Does what you are saying about sports also apply to theater and music?

jesterman 4y ago
Is a disproportionate amount of money spent on very few children for theater and music?
- soperj 4y ago
  Yes?
- anthomtb 4y ago
  Not where I grew up. Sports teams, theater and music programs were all funded equally. All extracurriculars came with fees and fundraisers. One of the gym teachers, also the basketball coach, was useless if the team was likely to make a playoff run. One of the English teachers, the theater director, was equally useless during the weeks leading up to a performance. I thought the GGP was being unfair to athletics. Scholastic athletics are a necessary outlet for a lot of kids, as are theater and music. If you are going to do away with one of them, do away with all of it. Maybe in certain areas of the USA (Texas, the deep south) you get an excess of public money going to athletics, in which case GGP has a valid point. But that wasn't my experience.
  - freetime2 4y ago
    And in a country where 69% of adults are overweight, and 36% are obese [1], I would like to see even more emphasis on physical education (including after-school sports) rather than less. [1] https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-trends-original/obesity-rates-worldwide/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesi...
    - jrumbut 4y ago
      I've come to see obesity and our production of elite athletes as two sides of the same coin. When I was in high school my baseball and football practices were 2-3 hours long and I would be exhausted and wheezing by the end of them. I have a knee injury from freshman year that still bothers me 20 years later. That's an insane time and energy commitment, I see why a lot of kids end up doing nothing. I'd like to see more options that are lower intensity, don't require a commitment, and meet kids where they're at fitness level-wise.

freetime2 4y ago

> The football coach in our HS has a Vice Principal title, so he doesn't have to teach classes but knocks down $100K+ to run the team Presumably being Vice Principal carries other responsibilities beyond just coaching football. For perspective, the Vice Principal at my high school didn’t teach classes OR coach any sports - being Vice Principal is a full-time position on its own. And this was in a school with far fewer than 2000 students.

Symbiote 4y ago
I'll bet your vice principal could teach classes, and used to teach classes before being promoted. They may even do so occasionally, if a teacher is unexpectedly sick. My school's vice principal taught two class, so about 4 hours a week IIRC. I'll also bet that's unlikely to be the case for the football coach.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Best history teacher I ever had was a guy who's "real career" was coaching.

kerpotgh 4y ago

[dead]

poulsbohemian 4y ago

> sports clubs are run by outside groups and happen after school on their own resources I'm sorry, I don't get your argument here... in your first sentence you say school sports harms equity, but then you advocate for private sports clubs - which in my poor district would mean a whole lot of kids not able to participate without the publicly-provided funding of those public school activities. School sports, music, theater, etc is the equity that wouldn't be otherwise available if we all moved to privatized education, clubs, etc. Which is not to say if those clubs are available in your community and you can afford them, good for you and your kids.