8 ms·
Coffee won’t give you extra energy, just borrow a bit that you’ll pay for later
- perardi 4y agoWell that’s why we have amphetamines and modafinil.
- ejstronge 4y agoDoes anyone know of references that address how effective specific amounts of caffeine are at different times of day? This seems like the kind of question that a military would wish to study but I haven’t ever found a ‘user’s guide’ for optimal coffee use
- mathgeek 4y agoI would be surprised if such a generalization is useful, since metabolism varies and is integral to the effects.
- ejstronge 4y agoI suspect it will be - most of medicine uses the idea of 'reference ranges' to establish normal physiological state. The reference range is simply the range of observed states of whatever characteristic is being measured. Here, I would be interested in a study that maps caffeine doses to changes in various characteristics such as alertness/acuity and latency between periods of falling asleep.
- seizethecheese 4y agoHuberman podcast episode on caffeine.
- complianceowl 4y agoI'm perfectly fine with this. Many times, I don't need the energy later; I need it right now.
- trynewideas 4y agoPreviously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34572794 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34572794
- aeternum 4y agoThis cites no data or studies. Companies that created a coffee break during the industrial revolution did see significant productivity and quality improvements. It's quite possible that caffeine blocks adenosine and then your body metabolizes it away via another mechanism for it maxes out. Thus you don't end up paying all of it back. Why? Perhaps our brains may be evolutionarily programmed to use less energy than they could because food was previously much harder to come by. From an energy conservation POV, overproduction of adenosine makes biological sense.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- yazzku 4y agoLiterally every link in the page is a paper. Pubmed, NCBI, HSPH, etc. Also, the interaction of caffeine with adenosine is not new. I also read somewhere else, in relation to the tolerance build-up, that as the caffeine intake becomes regular, your body produces more and more adenosine than usual to counter-act it. Thus, if you quit the caffeine intake suddenly after many days or weeks of regular intake, you get a crash of biblical proportions. I don't have a source for this right now, but it's also consistent with my own observations. It's also why articles typically suggest to lower the dose progressively when you're trying to quit. And another myth might be its "positive" effects on exercise. While there are mixed studies on whether caffeine is a diuretic and/or whether it causes dehydration, from my own observations, the motherfucker does make me want to drink insane amounts more of water. So the fake energy sensation is kind of counter-acted by that. Of course, this is my own biased, non-scientific opinion, but I've experimented with this, doing the same exercise the same day of the week, across multiple weeks, with/out the coffee shot. If I want to maximize exercise output now, I stay clear of it, get a good sleep, stay hydrated.
- taeric 4y agoBeing fair, none of the studies linked showed that you were "borrowing a bit" that you would have to "pay back later." That does feel like a stretch over the rest of the articles. It is neat to read on how/why it works. That said, the claim that "it is not the creation of energy" feels like a stretch anyway. Do people really think they get energized in some magical creation way from coffee? Worse, the claim is there that the adenosine "doesn't go away," but there is no cite for that rather key claim. (Did I miss it?) Edit: For why that last claim needs a cite, it would be like saying ADHD meds for those that take them are "borrowing focus from a later time." Which... feels very contra to how that works.
- crispinb 4y agoCoffee has no subjective effect on my energy or arousal or alertness. I just really enjoy the taste and aroma. Every year or two I wonder if I'm getting addicted or inured to caffeine's effects, so take a few experimental weeks off. Sure enough, nothing happens - no withdrawal effects or subjective reduction in alerness/arousal/energy. I return eventually because I miss the taste with my morning toast. I haven't quite generated the curiosity to to read up on it, but I idly wonder if caffeine just doesn't have much effect on some people.
- tomatotomato37 4y agoI'm kinda the same way. While I still do a daily one to prevent the withdrawal headaches, most of my coffee drinking is for the experience, with more energy than necessary put into making it fancy with the techniques and ratios and such. The caffeine only really hits when I'm dialing in a new espresso recipe and go through like 3 or 4 shots within a short window
- crispinb 4y agoI've never experienced a withdrawal headache. Though thinking about it the only headaches I've ever had have been the result of hangovers, so maybe I'm just not prone to headaches in general.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y agoPart of the joy of coffee is the ritual around its preparation. I imagine the same is true for matcha tea drinkers in Japan, which has quite a ritual.
- frereubu 4y agoFor sure - I went through a period of having a couple of single espressos every day, and if I stopped cold without a day or two of tea drinking to taper off, I'd get a day of really strong headaches. If you can start and stop without noticing anything you clearly have a different metabolism (or you're drinking very weak coffee!)
- 4y ago
- eachro 4y agoMost people don't need sustained energy over a day. For knowledge work at least, the vast majority of work occurs in very specific spurts. So it's more than fine to borrow energy from your future self to get that burst right now when you're in the middle of getting something done.
- Ifkaluva 4y agoExactly, it provides control over when to have energy and when to rest.
- westurner 4y agoFrom the article: > This is because the caffeine won’t bind forever, and the adenosine that it blocks doesn’t go away. So eventually the caffeine breaks down, lets go of the receptors and all that adenosine that has been waiting and building up latches on and the drowsy feeling comes back – sometimes all at once. > So, the debt you owe the caffeine always eventually needs to be repaid, and the only real way to repay it is to sleep. Does drinking water offset the exertion-resultant dehydration that caffeine and other stimulants tend to result in?
- truth777 4y ago[dead]
- truth777 4y ago[dead]
- PeterisP 4y agoI've heard a similar saying that alcohol is a way to borrow happiness from tomorrow.
- imwillofficial 4y agoThat’s future Will’s problem
- nnx 4y agoIs there any drink providing extra energy now without borrowing the future then?
- Thrymr 4y agoSure, anything with sugar in it. Not that there is no physiological cost, of course, but dissolved sugar is nearly pure short-term energy for your body.
- lxchase 4y agoCheck out Rasa (https://wearerasa.com/ https://wearerasa.com/). We use adaptogenic herbs instead of caffeine that manage your cortisol (stress) levels. One example is Rhodiola[0] which promotes increased energy, and mental capacity. We have a "dirty" version that includes coffee at lesser caffeine levels as well. Disclosure: I work at Rasa [0] https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/rhodiola https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/rhodiola
- maerF0x0 4y agoDepends when you drink it. My quick rules of thumb: 1. I wait 90 minutes from waking to allow adenosine to clear (as opposed to blocking the receptor sites and letting the adenosine stay until crashing in the afternoon). Got this from Andrew huberman on youtube 2. Not after noon - I am fairly early sleeper so a good 8-10 hours to clear the caffeine. (this is about 2 half lives meaning a 75% reduction) 3. Not more than 1 caffeine dose (coffee, coke, premier protein latte -- choose one) just by personal trial and error.
- NoPicklez 4y agoThe reason why is pretty clear cut in the article, but you can absolutely be strategic in when you drink it to make its effects more beneficial to your day. But at the end of the day you're only borrowing time. Your point 1) was addressed in the article with a cite as well.
- solomatov 4y agoIn my experience, it's not the case. I tried periods when I drink coffee, and drink no coffee for months. I was much more productive when I did drink some coffee. P.S. Of course it's a sample size of one.
- pigsty 4y agoSimilar experience. Although my most productive periods have been those days where I start drinking coffee again after a month of no caffeine. Then it tapers out but remains at a higher baseline than no caffeine.
- miguelazo 4y agoGood thing I drink it for the flavor. (And that there are actually some good decafs out there-- hopefully more coming soon!).
- czinck 4y agoThe conclusion of the article seems wrong, or at least the stated facts don't support the conclusion. >the caffeine won’t bind forever, and the adenosine that it blocks doesn’t go away. So eventually the caffeine breaks down, lets go of the receptors and all that adenosine that has been waiting and building up latches on and the drowsy feeling comes back – sometimes all at once. This seems like a net win? The adenosine would have always been there making you feel tired without the caffeine, so you are getting "free" energy, and the only after-effect is that you suddenly become exactly as tired as you would have been either way. That said, I had heard before (and can't find a source for right now) that building up a tolerance to caffeine also causes an up-regulation in adenosine production (or receptors?), so when you stop drinking coffee you become extra tired. But, this article doesn't mention that and my personal experience has been mixed.
- bradleyjg 4y agoSo eventually the caffeine breaks down, lets go of the receptors and all that adenosine that has been waiting and building up latches on and the drowsy feeling comes back – sometimes all at once. So, the debt you owe the caffeine always eventually needs to be repaid, and the only real way to repay it is to sleep. Since many people also have trouble falling asleep this seems like a win-win if you can the timing right.
- mojomark 4y agoIt's not energy I'm after - it's focus and creativity.
- fleddr 4y agoCoffee is the one subject where I'm proudly anti-science. I'll drink it regardless, as many as I want. I'll pretend the negatives don't exist which by means of placebo is true in my "lived experience". Denial is an undervalued life skill. When somebody declares a complicated problem, you simply decide "no it isn't" and then you move on.
- xeromal 4y agoThis is a great way to live in some ways. Ignorance is bliss.
- mukti 4y agoI think this is especially great for controversial topics/problems too, if it doesn't end with some long term bad result. Coffee is good, and as long as you aren't getting hooked on needing the caffeine, its a bit of a luxury. Its good to enjoy some things in life.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 4y agoGood news! You don't have to be anti-science because coffee is good for you. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/food-features/coffee/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/food-features/c... > The bottom line: A large body of evidence suggests that consumption of caffeinated coffee does not increase the risk of cardiovascular diseases and cancers. In fact, consumption of 3 to 5 standard cups of coffee daily has been consistently associated with a reduced risk of several chronic diseases.
- actionablefiber 4y agoI’m curious if not drinking coffee is associated with getting a caffeine fix from less healthy sources (sodas, energy drinks) and if that is a potentially confounding factor.
- n0tth3dro1ds 4y agoI always thought the confounding factor was that coffee keeps you productive. Meaning, drinking coffee gives you (superior) employment, which means you get decent health care. You also might gain some meaning in life from your job. You will also probably get some extra human interaction with coworkers as well. Going to work and being a part of a large organization that works on cool products definitely “energizes” me. I have friends at work that I enjoy seeing daily. I would have a hard time keeping my job without caffeine. I could easily see all the ancillary life benefits of being caffeine addicted being the primary reason why coffee seems to be good for health in all these studies.
- m1117 4y agoIt still makes sense because of the energy inflation, but it may depend on the interest.
- benkitzelman 4y agoCoffee naps have definitely helped me meet deadlines lol. The idea is to skull a cup of strong coffee, and have a nap for 15 mins... just enough time to clear the adenosine, and for the caffeine to enter the bloodstream and block the receptors https://www.vox.com/2014/8/28/6074177/coffee-naps-caffeine-science https://www.vox.com/2014/8/28/6074177/coffee-naps-caffeine-s...
- winrid 4y agoThis definitely worked wonders for me when I was younger. Nowadays my strategy is "fuck you, it goes out next week" :)
- zamfi 4y agoAnother N=1: I consistently need less sleep when I drink 1 dose of caffeine each day. I used to need 9 hours of sleep a night, now I'm no longer extraordinarily fatigued with 6-7 indefinitely. I only came into my caffeine habit in my mid 30s, and the change was pretty dramatic and immediate. Whether I'm slowly killing myself by not sleeping enough is another question entirely that I only wish I knew the answer to.
- brmgb 4y agoAs someone who sadly has fairly regular sleep issues, I feel perfectly functional and reasonably productive on 6 hours of sleep a night. Yet, everytime I manage to regularly get 8, I feel so much better and am noticably sharper. My advice is to try sleeping a bit more. You might not realise how actually tired you are.
- paulpauper 4y agoCoffee is a poor substitute for actual calories. I tried 0-caloire and caffeine substitutes for food. none work that well.
- opensores 4y agoCoffee is an anti-thiamine factor (because of compounds like caffeic acid, which also exist in Dcaf). It also hinders absorption of thiamine and minerals such as iron. Other than modifying nutrient absorption, it also has benefits, such as raising stomach acid, which is beneficial for protein rich meals. So coffee with a real breakfast (eg., hash browns and eggs) should be beneficial. Coffee on an empty stomach is not good over repeated long term occasions, as it leads to cortisol spikes. If empty-stomaching coffee, it is a good time to pop some trace metal and mineral pills (iron, manganese, zinc, selenium, chromium, moly, boron, magnesium). Any problems with thiamine are easily reversed via thiamine supplementation. I try to take B-50 complex two or three times a week, and a thiamine supplement on alternate days, roughly at the same frequency. Coffee does seem to have net benefits. It's good against brain cloud.
- NuSkooler 4y agoJokes on you, I just keep on borrowing!
- TheCoelacanth 4y agoThat's exactly what I want. I have too much energy at 2am and not enough at 9am. Hence the coffee in the morning.
- afinlayson 4y agoNext up alcohol doesn’t create new fun, it just borrows tomorrows fun(hangover).
- throw1234651234 4y agoI think energy drinks (e.g. Monster, Red Bull, AMP, Kickstart) are HORRIBLE for your health, as someone who drinks them. It's absolutely true that it gives you a short term boost that you need to make up for. It spikes your blood pressure 5-15 points, overworks your heart, and kicks your metabolism and immune system into overdrive. One day is whatever - you just need 9 hours of sleep instead of 8. Two or three days, and you seriously can't function without it the next morning and start losing muscle mass, getting headaches, nose bleeds if you are prone to them, etc. As someone who used to drink them (and still do on occasion), none of this is an exaggeration. Furthermore, they absolutely ruin your teeth with the acidity. On-topic - the US army rangers did a study on caffeine specifically (among other substances) and found that it tightens up shot groups and increases response times. It is not, by any means, a placebo. Oh, and building up tolerance is a real thing too, of course.
- perrygeo 4y agoThe article ignores the fact that caffeine increases fat oxidation, allow you to burn stores of lipids that would otherwise be unavailable - literally giving you access to an extra pool of physical energy. Since all energy produced by the body is derived from food and conversation of energy is a thing, of course you'll need to pay for it later ... by eating.