8 ms·

Creator of Linux virtual assistant blames 'patent troll' for project's death

218 points by LorenDB 4y ago

LorenDB 4y ago
This is a shame.
tmikaeld 4y ago
Doesn't US businesses have legal insure to cover situations like this?
- dboreham 4y ago
  No
- johndhi 4y ago
  there isn't a lot of "litigation fee insurance" that is affordable.
- VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
  How would that work. This is a kickstarter project
indymike 4y ago
Over the weekend my wife was saying how nice it would be to have a "hey google" that wasn't sending data to Google all the time. My wife is not a tech person, but she was really creeped out be having a conversation with a daughter about music, and then having the artist my daughter mentioned show up in her YouTube music feed. Could have been coincidence... but...
- mdp2021 4y ago
  I never had to solve that problem in detail, but - check the software you have installed, linked in any way to a microphone, and its permissions, and all the "contracts" (licences) you may sign or have signed. Some who are spared from that phenomenon of eavesdropping have followed that path.
- thomastjeffery 4y ago
  It's more likely that the daughter played music from that artist on YouTube, and your public IP address was associated to it in YouTube's data. Still sketchy, just less mysterious.
  - jbverschoor 4y ago
    Nah I have the same regularly when I only talk about things with a friend. I think devices are listening more than disclosed. I mean, you can hide it by doing the analysis on-device, and just sending some encrypted tag of a few bytes whenever there's an API message being sent. But it could just be a coincidence of course
    - jackson1442 4y ago
      that could also be a similar story- device proximity and contacts being used to infer common interests between two people. If someone's talking about a topic (even if it's a long-standing interest) it's highly likely they've searched for something related to it recently.
    - filoleg 4y ago
      > Nah I have the same regularly when I only talk about things with a friend. Sure, but did your friend google those things at any point (before or after your conversation)? Do you ever connect to the same wifi access points? Are your phones ever in physical proximity? Almost certainly your answer would be "yes" to most of those questions, which also explains how you get the suggestions about things you "only talked about" with your friend. I agree that this is not a coincidence, but the explanation is rather simple, really. If there is a user A who googles topic X, and there is another user B who appears to be their "social link" (via device proximity, occasionally utilizing same wifi access points, sending emails to each other, etc), it makes sense to suggest topic X to user B.
    - derekp7 4y ago
      Well, once I was making a peanut butter sandwich. Next ad I saw on my phone was for an organic brand of peanut butter. I never said or searched for anything related to that. So my theory is that the phone has an undisclosed odor sensor in it that is sending back data. My point being, that if you have a large enough data set then you can find all kinds of coincidences within that set. I.e., I'm sure you've heard of the comparisons between Lincoln and Kennedy (i.e., Lincoln was killed in the Ford theater, and Kennedy was killed in a Ford). This is also known as the Texas Sharpshooter's Fallacy.
- Zurrrrr 4y ago
  It probably saw the daughter accessed stuff from a home IP address so suggested stuff to every device on that same IP.
- krunck 4y ago
  And now due to this patent trolling the Googles of the world don't have to worry about people side stepping their surveillance and cutting into their profits. Not that there's a conspiracy. But it really sucks that these deeply entrenched mechanisms in our economy just keep taking freedom from surveillance away from people.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  It's not coincidence. Google does this with articles in the Android assistant when you do searches on a separate device. Everything that can be linked to a common owner will have ads blasted to it based on their consumer profiling.
- PartiallyTyped 4y ago
  N=1, i was talking to my father over Meta’s messenger about my plans for the future. I mentioned doing research in $Country, a visit to the grocery store later and the ads in my messenger app were for a research degree in $country. We were even speaking in a mixture of english and $language, and it still figured stuff out. Unfortunately i cant get my friends and family to adopt a more privacy friendly platform.
moffkalast 4y ago
Ah well, sad to hear. I've tried it a while back and the architecture with skills being separate diy-able scripts looked promising, but overall it wasn't all that usable. Eventually it would've been steamrolled by a GPT based assistant anyway.
- colechristensen 4y ago
  I’m trying it right now and the initial results seem promising. The openai whisper voice to text works nearly flawlessly and everything else seems to be falling into place. I’m thinking of using local gpt or similar models to classify and then distribute requests to more programmed scripts.
  - nmfisher 4y ago
    Are you just padding input windows to 30 seconds, or have you come up with a smarter way to handle "streaming"?
    - colechristensen 4y ago
      Just padding, there's a built-in function which just does it. That is definitely in the realm of "problems for much later", the bits that interest me are what to do with the input, and 30 seconds to talk is more than enough to accomplish what I'm thinking about. A physical button for input is what I'm thinking as a side project, I like that much more than always-on listening. There are also lots of much less heavy weight voice to text which could do streaming listening waiting for a key phrase which when found could start recording and send the output up to the better model. I don't know what they are, but I know they exist.
gnarbarian 4y ago
I would love to see a broad effort to certify, promote, and support open source privacy respecting devices from smart watches like pinetime, open laptops and phones, routers, even CPAP devices. it's incredibly important for us to have maintainable open alternatives to the proprietary hellscape I see even when trying to purchase the most mundane devices. some markets lacking open alternatives now: security cameras smart speakers CPAPs working OSS phones wireless routers (shipped with open firmware) automotive diagnostic/programming software smart TVs smart scales air tags smart thermostats personal weather stations
- gnarbarian 4y ago
  Here are some ways you could rank devices: Open API with documentation? Open Source Firmware that can be deployed and updated by the user. Open Source hardware specification (think RISC V) Does this device produce data in an open format or standard? Does the device send data to the manufacturer or third parties? Does this device depend on cloud infrastructure the end user cannot control or replace with their own? Does this device require you to install a mobile app to configure or manage it? Can the device be repaired or upgraded? What is the typical support lifetime by the manufacturer for software updates? What is the MTBF? Does the device have a secure supply chain? Are cad files available to support modding and repair?
- jonathankoren 4y ago
  Have taken a look at Mozilla's Privacy Not Included project? https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/
- DoingIsLearning 4y ago
  > CPAPs > automotive diagnostic/programming software The regulatory evidence you need to submit, the standards you need to comply with and the quality control you need throughout the whole manufacturing process makes it near impossible to deliver community driven open-source medical devices unless it's a 'wellness' (not medical device) or maybe class I medical device. You could argue that Manufacturers could design open hardware and let people modify code at will on their custom CPAP but it would be very difficult to navigate legal liability. If someone modifies their custom CPAP and makes a firmware change that drastically increases pressure and a patient suffers barotrauma who is liable? The same can be said for safety critical firmware in automotive (excluding infotainment etc.). Diagnostics/Logging sure have at it, but actual firmware changes I would prefer that we let manufacturers do that. A 4 tonne vehicle at 100 Km/h can hurt a lot more people than just a tinkering driver.
ntonozzi 4y ago
Software patents are a huge drag on small companies and innovative large ones, it's just that large companies are better able to handle the costs. Our world would be better if we ended software patents. Check out FSF's campaign to end software patents: https://endsoftwarepatents.org https://endsoftwarepatents.org.
- VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
  This isn't a software patent.
  - nhchris 4y ago
    Yes it is: Voice Tech's patents, according to their abstract, involve "receiving audio data from [a] mobile device at the computer. The audio data is decoded into a command. A software program that the command was provided for is determined. At least one process is executed at the computer in response to the command. Output data is generated at the computer in response to executing at least one process at the computer. The output data is transmitted to the mobile device." https://www.theregister.com/2020/02/12/mycroft_patent_troll/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/02/12/mycroft_patent_troll/
    - VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
      This is different. This isn't a patent of an algorithm or similar implementation in software. This is a means of controlling a device by decoded voice commands via another device. It's not a software patent in the way FOSS people mean when they say to ban software patents.
      - EarlKing 4y ago
        Describing a shovel as an "emplacement tool" does not make it not a shovel. Similarly, dressing up a software patent to disguise its functionality as a software patent does not make it cease to be a software patent.
      - AnthonyMouse 4y ago
VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
> Voice Tech Corp., based in Tyler, Texas, filed suit Feb. 18 in federal court in Kansas City, accusing Mycroft of infringing on its patent for using voice commands from a mobile device to remotely access and control a computer. I'm sure there's some prior art to be found here, but the lawyer fees are still going to be a lot to fight it. Sounds like that's what doomed them.
- GartzenDeHaes 4y ago
  Tyler Texas Patent Trolls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XknFl1l_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XknFl1l_8
  - DangitBobby 4y ago
    Sounds like it would be really, really easy to filter out these trolls if Texas courts weren't simply corrupt. I wonder how the payment for these judges is arranged.
    - GartzenDeHaes 4y ago
      They say the judge is the father-in-law
BrandoElFollito 4y ago
I do not understand why he does not move the project to, say, France and show the middle finger to the patent troll.
- Infernal 4y ago
  Sounds like the litigation has been dropped, but the $1m in attorneys fees already paid was a loss too large to bear.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  If you want to sell to people in the US, then US patents still matter.
jehb 4y ago
I was excited about this project, so I'm saddened by this news. Having said that, I'm a little confused by the outcome here. What I really want is a pre-built piece of hardware that runs the Mycroft open source project, so I don't have to go figure out which speaker and microphone array works with whatever Raspberry Pi clone I can actually find in stock at the moment. I would be a little disappointed if there were no longer an entity working on the software itself, but honestly all I ever use this type of device for is 1) setting timers 2) checking the weather 3) playing music, so assuming those things work reasonably okay with the current software, I'm not really in need of further innovation here. Back to the hardware - what am I missing? Can I buy this? The Mark I seems to no longer be manufactured and the Mark II is what seems to have now become vaporware because of this litigation. I understand it might not be a loss leader like a Google Nest Home Assistant Hub Device (I've given up on actually understanding Google's naming anymore), but it really shouldn't be that expensive for a "dumb" smart speaker. Does anyone make this? I'd prefer no proprietary hardware, but I'd accept a somewhat-closed piece of hardware if it could run software of my choosing.
- joseda-hg 4y ago
  According to the page, you can still buy the Hardware, it's made by a "partner" and it's self funding "Which brings us to the present day. We will still be shipping all orders that are made through the Mycroft website, because these sales directly cover the costs of producing and shipping the products. However we do not have the funds to continue fulfilling rewards from this crowdfunding campaign, or to even continue meaningful operations."[1] 1.https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aiforeveryone/mycroft-mark-ii-the-open-voice-assistant/posts/3729060 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aiforeveryone/mycroft-m...
  - jehb 4y ago
    You're right - I read the Register article linked here and jumped straight to the project homepage without realizing the stock listed there was a separate source than the Kickstarter described in the article.
arp242 4y ago
The actual patent seems to be https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348B2/en It's incredibly generic; it basically just describes the computer from Star Trek: "computer, where is captain Picard?" There's a little bit more to it, but not much. There's also a number of very similar patents in the Patent Citations section with only superficial differences, so it's not even the first patent on this. Nothing was innovated here beyond the obvious; this patent shouldn't have been approved. The idea is that either 1) investments are protected by granting exclusive rights for a limited period, and 2) the public benefits by making the innovation public so they can benefit after the exclusive rights expire. But neither is the case here: there was no innovation here beyond writing the patent, and the public doesn't benefit because it's a generic high-level description like we've seen in science fiction for many decades. Whether patents are even a good or bad thing in the first place doesn't even come in to play.
- coryrc 4y ago
  IIRC the patent office cracked down on bullshit like this around a decade ago? This one precedes that though. https://www.pcmag.com/news/white-house-plan-cracks-down-on-patent-trolls https://www.pcmag.com/news/white-house-plan-cracks-down-on-p...
- jussij 4y ago
  I'm not sure how this idea is even considered unique in the computing world as we have been able to talk to computers for decades. For example, Dargon's Naturally Speaking is several decades old and it lets you talk to the computer with the computer translates those voice commands into computer actions. It's hands free, voice controlled computing.
  - bonzini 4y ago
    The patent is specifically about heuristics to pick between various commands. For example if I say "turn the light on" while in the kitchen it would turn the kitchen light on, if I am in the bedroom it would turn the bedroom light on. Also depending on whether I or my wife say "good night" it might turn off different bedside lights. Still pretty obvious to anybody who has read any sci-fi, but it's not about voice commands in general.
throw34778314 4y ago
[Edit: It appears there were at least two suits filed by the same patent troll. The first was in east Texas and was dropped by February 13, 2020 (https://web.archive.org/web/20200305135828/https://mycroft.ai/blog/patent-troll-update-1/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200305135828/https://mycroft.a...). However, five days later, on February 18, 2020, the same patent troll entity filed a second suit in Kansas City (https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2020/03/30/mycroft-ai-voice-tech-patent-infringement-suit.html https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2020/03/30/mycro...). According to the latter article, their projected costs to fighting the suit were already at least ~1/4 million$ three years ago (March 2020).]
- jandrese 4y ago
  It's possible the patent troll spooked some investors and caused them to back out.
  - throw34778314 4y ago
    Unfortunately the same patent troll sued twice. Mycroft's blog posts on the second suit: https://web.archive.org/web/20200807211354/https://mycroft.ai/blog/patent-troll-update-2/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200807211354/https://mycroft.a... https://web.archive.org/web/20200516014621/https://mycroft.ai/blog/legendary-lee-cheng-joins-mycroft-patent-effort/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200516014621/https://mycroft.a...
- lucideer 4y ago
  Have you read the article text or just the headline? The article says the same thing you're saying (trill dropped the case) & cites legal costs already incurred by then as being a burden on mycroft. --- [Edit] Ok you've edited so my reply no longer makes sense, but one case or two there would be legal costs to mycroft regardless.
  - throw34778314 4y ago
    Mea culpa for kneejerk commenting. The article is a little confusing though; what actually seems to have occurred is: 1. Patent troll entity filed a suit in east Texas, c. February 2020 (https://web.archive.org/web/20200410225148/https://mycroft.ai/blog/troll-hunter-mycrofts-position-on-patent-trolls/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200410225148/https://mycroft.a...). 2. Same patent troll entity dropped the first suit, also c. February 2020 (https://web.archive.org/web/20200305135828/https://mycroft.ai/blog/patent-troll-update-1/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200305135828/https://mycroft.a...). 3. Same patent troll entity filed a second suit in Kansas City on February 18, 2020 (https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2020/03/30/mycroft-ai-voice-tech-patent-infringement-suit.html https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2020/03/30/mycro...) (https://web.archive.org/web/20200807211354/https://mycroft.ai/blog/patent-troll-update-2/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200807211354/https://mycroft.a...) (https://web.archive.org/web/20200516014621/https://mycroft.ai/blog/legendary-lee-cheng-joins-mycroft-patent-effort/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200516014621/https://mycroft.a...). This second suit seems to have substantially cost Mycroft.
soufron 4y ago
Why not come to the EU? That simple.
sva_ 4y ago
No direct mentions of the patents in the article, but indirectly through an older article[0]. The patents in question seem to be [1][2] (both the same?!). > A method of using voice commands from a mobile device to remotely access and control a computer. The method includes receiving audio data from the mobile device at the computer. The audio data is decoded into a command. A software program that the command was provided for is determined. At least one process is executed at the computer in response to the command. Output data is generated at the computer in response to executing at least one process at the computer. The output data is transmitted to the mobile device. How can a patent like this pass? This is absolutely ridiculous. Patents relating to CS are utterly broken, people need to demand the government to step in since it is impossible for small players to fight them, hence it stifles innovation. 0. https://www.theregister.com/2020/02/12/mycroft_patent_troll/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/02/12/mycroft_patent_troll/ 1. https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348 https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348 2. https://patents.google.com/patent/US10491679 https://patents.google.com/patent/US10491679
prhrb 4y ago
That's very sad
jayruss 4y ago
I'm super bummed to hear this. I got my order in very early and am fortunate to have actually received mine. The unit itself is pretty bulky, it turns on/off lights via home assistant well, but feels pretty half baked because it doesn't do much more than that.
bdowling 4y ago
> But what truly killed the company and product, he claimed, were expenses related to ongoing litigation. Some of this cost includes defending against the lawsuit alleging that Mycroft and its principals initiated or called for a campaign of cyber attacks and harassment against the lawyer for the patentee and his family. [0] [0] See, e.g., Tumey L.L.P. et al v. Mycroft AI Inc. et al Case No. 4:21-cv-00113 (W.D. Mo.) https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/egpbkqlzqvq/IP%20PATENTS%20HARASSMENT%20complaint.pdf https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/egpbkqlzqvq/...
lrvick 4y ago
Had the MyCroft team made a dedicated funding project for their legal defense, I would have gladly funded it as would many others, because fuck patent trolls. Too many open source projects deal with this sort of thing in secret until it is too late. We really need an open source project patent troll defense fund that reigns millions in legal hell down on the first to try to hit any company protected under it including counter-suing for damages until it sinks them. Also hire private investigators to find the real names and backgrounds of every asshole on the other side of the suit, and anyone who supports them. Make everything public to the furthest extent of the law and socially bankrupt them all. We need public scorched earth to send a message anyone else that tries to hit any other protected projects.
pabs3 4y ago
I liked how the GNOME community dealt with their patent troll. IIRC the patent is no longer allowed to be enforced.
jzebedee 4y ago
Very disappointing to see. I knew something was up since Mike Hansen, the engineer maintaining their Mimic3 offline TTS model, mentioned being let go in the open GitHub issues. https://github.com/MycroftAI/mimic3 https://github.com/MycroftAI/mimic3 Mike seems to have kept the effort going with his larynx2 project. I was thrilled at the results their model produced so I hope to see more from it. https://github.com/rhasspy/larynx2 https://github.com/rhasspy/larynx2

218 points by LorenDB 4y ago

LorenDB 4y ago

This is a shame.

tmikaeld 4y ago

Doesn't US businesses have legal insure to cover situations like this?

dboreham 4y ago
No
johndhi 4y ago
there isn't a lot of "litigation fee insurance" that is affordable.
VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
How would that work. This is a kickstarter project

indymike 4y ago

Over the weekend my wife was saying how nice it would be to have a "hey google" that wasn't sending data to Google all the time. My wife is not a tech person, but she was really creeped out be having a conversation with a daughter about music, and then having the artist my daughter mentioned show up in her YouTube music feed. Could have been coincidence... but...

mdp2021 4y ago
I never had to solve that problem in detail, but - check the software you have installed, linked in any way to a microphone, and its permissions, and all the "contracts" (licences) you may sign or have signed. Some who are spared from that phenomenon of eavesdropping have followed that path.
thomastjeffery 4y ago
It's more likely that the daughter played music from that artist on YouTube, and your public IP address was associated to it in YouTube's data. Still sketchy, just less mysterious.
- jbverschoor 4y ago
  Nah I have the same regularly when I only talk about things with a friend. I think devices are listening more than disclosed. I mean, you can hide it by doing the analysis on-device, and just sending some encrypted tag of a few bytes whenever there's an API message being sent. But it could just be a coincidence of course
  - jackson1442 4y ago
    that could also be a similar story- device proximity and contacts being used to infer common interests between two people. If someone's talking about a topic (even if it's a long-standing interest) it's highly likely they've searched for something related to it recently.
  - filoleg 4y ago
    > Nah I have the same regularly when I only talk about things with a friend. Sure, but did your friend google those things at any point (before or after your conversation)? Do you ever connect to the same wifi access points? Are your phones ever in physical proximity? Almost certainly your answer would be "yes" to most of those questions, which also explains how you get the suggestions about things you "only talked about" with your friend. I agree that this is not a coincidence, but the explanation is rather simple, really. If there is a user A who googles topic X, and there is another user B who appears to be their "social link" (via device proximity, occasionally utilizing same wifi access points, sending emails to each other, etc), it makes sense to suggest topic X to user B.
  - derekp7 4y ago
    Well, once I was making a peanut butter sandwich. Next ad I saw on my phone was for an organic brand of peanut butter. I never said or searched for anything related to that. So my theory is that the phone has an undisclosed odor sensor in it that is sending back data. My point being, that if you have a large enough data set then you can find all kinds of coincidences within that set. I.e., I'm sure you've heard of the comparisons between Lincoln and Kennedy (i.e., Lincoln was killed in the Ford theater, and Kennedy was killed in a Ford). This is also known as the Texas Sharpshooter's Fallacy.
Zurrrrr 4y ago
It probably saw the daughter accessed stuff from a home IP address so suggested stuff to every device on that same IP.
krunck 4y ago
And now due to this patent trolling the Googles of the world don't have to worry about people side stepping their surveillance and cutting into their profits. Not that there's a conspiracy. But it really sucks that these deeply entrenched mechanisms in our economy just keep taking freedom from surveillance away from people.
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
It's not coincidence. Google does this with articles in the Android assistant when you do searches on a separate device. Everything that can be linked to a common owner will have ads blasted to it based on their consumer profiling.
PartiallyTyped 4y ago
N=1, i was talking to my father over Meta’s messenger about my plans for the future. I mentioned doing research in $Country, a visit to the grocery store later and the ads in my messenger app were for a research degree in $country. We were even speaking in a mixture of english and $language, and it still figured stuff out. Unfortunately i cant get my friends and family to adopt a more privacy friendly platform.

moffkalast 4y ago

Ah well, sad to hear. I've tried it a while back and the architecture with skills being separate diy-able scripts looked promising, but overall it wasn't all that usable. Eventually it would've been steamrolled by a GPT based assistant anyway.

colechristensen 4y ago
I’m trying it right now and the initial results seem promising. The openai whisper voice to text works nearly flawlessly and everything else seems to be falling into place. I’m thinking of using local gpt or similar models to classify and then distribute requests to more programmed scripts.
- nmfisher 4y ago
  Are you just padding input windows to 30 seconds, or have you come up with a smarter way to handle "streaming"?
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    Just padding, there's a built-in function which just does it. That is definitely in the realm of "problems for much later", the bits that interest me are what to do with the input, and 30 seconds to talk is more than enough to accomplish what I'm thinking about. A physical button for input is what I'm thinking as a side project, I like that much more than always-on listening. There are also lots of much less heavy weight voice to text which could do streaming listening waiting for a key phrase which when found could start recording and send the output up to the better model. I don't know what they are, but I know they exist.

gnarbarian 4y ago

I would love to see a broad effort to certify, promote, and support open source privacy respecting devices from smart watches like pinetime, open laptops and phones, routers, even CPAP devices. it's incredibly important for us to have maintainable open alternatives to the proprietary hellscape I see even when trying to purchase the most mundane devices. some markets lacking open alternatives now: security cameras smart speakers CPAPs working OSS phones wireless routers (shipped with open firmware) automotive diagnostic/programming software smart TVs smart scales air tags smart thermostats personal weather stations

gnarbarian 4y ago
Here are some ways you could rank devices: Open API with documentation? Open Source Firmware that can be deployed and updated by the user. Open Source hardware specification (think RISC V) Does this device produce data in an open format or standard? Does the device send data to the manufacturer or third parties? Does this device depend on cloud infrastructure the end user cannot control or replace with their own? Does this device require you to install a mobile app to configure or manage it? Can the device be repaired or upgraded? What is the typical support lifetime by the manufacturer for software updates? What is the MTBF? Does the device have a secure supply chain? Are cad files available to support modding and repair?
jonathankoren 4y ago
Have taken a look at Mozilla's Privacy Not Included project? https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/
DoingIsLearning 4y ago
> CPAPs > automotive diagnostic/programming software The regulatory evidence you need to submit, the standards you need to comply with and the quality control you need throughout the whole manufacturing process makes it near impossible to deliver community driven open-source medical devices unless it's a 'wellness' (not medical device) or maybe class I medical device. You could argue that Manufacturers could design open hardware and let people modify code at will on their custom CPAP but it would be very difficult to navigate legal liability. If someone modifies their custom CPAP and makes a firmware change that drastically increases pressure and a patient suffers barotrauma who is liable? The same can be said for safety critical firmware in automotive (excluding infotainment etc.). Diagnostics/Logging sure have at it, but actual firmware changes I would prefer that we let manufacturers do that. A 4 tonne vehicle at 100 Km/h can hurt a lot more people than just a tinkering driver.

ntonozzi 4y ago

Software patents are a huge drag on small companies and innovative large ones, it's just that large companies are better able to handle the costs. Our world would be better if we ended software patents. Check out FSF's campaign to end software patents: https://endsoftwarepatents.org https://endsoftwarepatents.org.

VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
This isn't a software patent.
- nhchris 4y ago
  Yes it is: Voice Tech's patents, according to their abstract, involve "receiving audio data from [a] mobile device at the computer. The audio data is decoded into a command. A software program that the command was provided for is determined. At least one process is executed at the computer in response to the command. Output data is generated at the computer in response to executing at least one process at the computer. The output data is transmitted to the mobile device." https://www.theregister.com/2020/02/12/mycroft_patent_troll/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/02/12/mycroft_patent_troll/
  - VWWHFSfQ 4y ago
    This is different. This isn't a patent of an algorithm or similar implementation in software. This is a means of controlling a device by decoded voice commands via another device. It's not a software patent in the way FOSS people mean when they say to ban software patents.
    - EarlKing 4y ago
      Describing a shovel as an "emplacement tool" does not make it not a shovel. Similarly, dressing up a software patent to disguise its functionality as a software patent does not make it cease to be a software patent.
    - AnthonyMouse 4y ago

VWWHFSfQ 4y ago

> Voice Tech Corp., based in Tyler, Texas, filed suit Feb. 18 in federal court in Kansas City, accusing Mycroft of infringing on its patent for using voice commands from a mobile device to remotely access and control a computer. I'm sure there's some prior art to be found here, but the lawyer fees are still going to be a lot to fight it. Sounds like that's what doomed them.

GartzenDeHaes 4y ago
Tyler Texas Patent Trolls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XknFl1l_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8XknFl1l_8
- DangitBobby 4y ago
  Sounds like it would be really, really easy to filter out these trolls if Texas courts weren't simply corrupt. I wonder how the payment for these judges is arranged.
  - GartzenDeHaes 4y ago
    They say the judge is the father-in-law

BrandoElFollito 4y ago

I do not understand why he does not move the project to, say, France and show the middle finger to the patent troll.

Infernal 4y ago
Sounds like the litigation has been dropped, but the $1m in attorneys fees already paid was a loss too large to bear.
NotYourLawyer 4y ago
If you want to sell to people in the US, then US patents still matter.

jehb 4y ago

I was excited about this project, so I'm saddened by this news. Having said that, I'm a little confused by the outcome here. What I really want is a pre-built piece of hardware that runs the Mycroft open source project, so I don't have to go figure out which speaker and microphone array works with whatever Raspberry Pi clone I can actually find in stock at the moment. I would be a little disappointed if there were no longer an entity working on the software itself, but honestly all I ever use this type of device for is 1) setting timers 2) checking the weather 3) playing music, so assuming those things work reasonably okay with the current software, I'm not really in need of further innovation here. Back to the hardware - what am I missing? Can I buy this? The Mark I seems to no longer be manufactured and the Mark II is what seems to have now become vaporware because of this litigation. I understand it might not be a loss leader like a Google Nest Home Assistant Hub Device (I've given up on actually understanding Google's naming anymore), but it really shouldn't be that expensive for a "dumb" smart speaker. Does anyone make this? I'd prefer no proprietary hardware, but I'd accept a somewhat-closed piece of hardware if it could run software of my choosing.

joseda-hg 4y ago
According to the page, you can still buy the Hardware, it's made by a "partner" and it's self funding "Which brings us to the present day. We will still be shipping all orders that are made through the Mycroft website, because these sales directly cover the costs of producing and shipping the products. However we do not have the funds to continue fulfilling rewards from this crowdfunding campaign, or to even continue meaningful operations."[1] 1.https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aiforeveryone/mycroft-mark-ii-the-open-voice-assistant/posts/3729060 https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/aiforeveryone/mycroft-m...
- jehb 4y ago
  You're right - I read the Register article linked here and jumped straight to the project homepage without realizing the stock listed there was a separate source than the Kickstarter described in the article.

arp242 4y ago

The actual patent seems to be https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348B2/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348B2/en It's incredibly generic; it basically just describes the computer from Star Trek: "computer, where is captain Picard?" There's a little bit more to it, but not much. There's also a number of very similar patents in the Patent Citations section with only superficial differences, so it's not even the first patent on this. Nothing was innovated here beyond the obvious; this patent shouldn't have been approved. The idea is that either 1) investments are protected by granting exclusive rights for a limited period, and 2) the public benefits by making the innovation public so they can benefit after the exclusive rights expire. But neither is the case here: there was no innovation here beyond writing the patent, and the public doesn't benefit because it's a generic high-level description like we've seen in science fiction for many decades. Whether patents are even a good or bad thing in the first place doesn't even come in to play.

coryrc 4y ago
IIRC the patent office cracked down on bullshit like this around a decade ago? This one precedes that though. https://www.pcmag.com/news/white-house-plan-cracks-down-on-patent-trolls https://www.pcmag.com/news/white-house-plan-cracks-down-on-p...
jussij 4y ago
I'm not sure how this idea is even considered unique in the computing world as we have been able to talk to computers for decades. For example, Dargon's Naturally Speaking is several decades old and it lets you talk to the computer with the computer translates those voice commands into computer actions. It's hands free, voice controlled computing.
- bonzini 4y ago
  The patent is specifically about heuristics to pick between various commands. For example if I say "turn the light on" while in the kitchen it would turn the kitchen light on, if I am in the bedroom it would turn the bedroom light on. Also depending on whether I or my wife say "good night" it might turn off different bedside lights. Still pretty obvious to anybody who has read any sci-fi, but it's not about voice commands in general.

throw34778314 4y ago

[Edit: It appears there were at least two suits filed by the same patent troll. The first was in east Texas and was dropped by February 13, 2020 (https://web.archive.org/web/20200305135828/https://mycroft.ai/blog/patent-troll-update-1/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200305135828/https://mycroft.a...). However, five days later, on February 18, 2020, the same patent troll entity filed a second suit in Kansas City (https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2020/03/30/mycroft-ai-voice-tech-patent-infringement-suit.html https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2020/03/30/mycro...). According to the latter article, their projected costs to fighting the suit were already at least ~1/4 million$ three years ago (March 2020).]

jandrese 4y ago
It's possible the patent troll spooked some investors and caused them to back out.
- throw34778314 4y ago
  Unfortunately the same patent troll sued twice. Mycroft's blog posts on the second suit: https://web.archive.org/web/20200807211354/https://mycroft.ai/blog/patent-troll-update-2/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200807211354/https://mycroft.a... https://web.archive.org/web/20200516014621/https://mycroft.ai/blog/legendary-lee-cheng-joins-mycroft-patent-effort/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200516014621/https://mycroft.a...
lucideer 4y ago
Have you read the article text or just the headline? The article says the same thing you're saying (trill dropped the case) & cites legal costs already incurred by then as being a burden on mycroft. --- [Edit] Ok you've edited so my reply no longer makes sense, but one case or two there would be legal costs to mycroft regardless.
- throw34778314 4y ago
  Mea culpa for kneejerk commenting. The article is a little confusing though; what actually seems to have occurred is: 1. Patent troll entity filed a suit in east Texas, c. February 2020 (https://web.archive.org/web/20200410225148/https://mycroft.ai/blog/troll-hunter-mycrofts-position-on-patent-trolls/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200410225148/https://mycroft.a...). 2. Same patent troll entity dropped the first suit, also c. February 2020 (https://web.archive.org/web/20200305135828/https://mycroft.ai/blog/patent-troll-update-1/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200305135828/https://mycroft.a...). 3. Same patent troll entity filed a second suit in Kansas City on February 18, 2020 (https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2020/03/30/mycroft-ai-voice-tech-patent-infringement-suit.html https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/news/2020/03/30/mycro...) (https://web.archive.org/web/20200807211354/https://mycroft.ai/blog/patent-troll-update-2/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200807211354/https://mycroft.a...) (https://web.archive.org/web/20200516014621/https://mycroft.ai/blog/legendary-lee-cheng-joins-mycroft-patent-effort/ https://web.archive.org/web/20200516014621/https://mycroft.a...). This second suit seems to have substantially cost Mycroft.

soufron 4y ago

Why not come to the EU? That simple.

sva_ 4y ago

No direct mentions of the patents in the article, but indirectly through an older article[0]. The patents in question seem to be [1][2] (both the same?!). > A method of using voice commands from a mobile device to remotely access and control a computer. The method includes receiving audio data from the mobile device at the computer. The audio data is decoded into a command. A software program that the command was provided for is determined. At least one process is executed at the computer in response to the command. Output data is generated at the computer in response to executing at least one process at the computer. The output data is transmitted to the mobile device. How can a patent like this pass? This is absolutely ridiculous. Patents relating to CS are utterly broken, people need to demand the government to step in since it is impossible for small players to fight them, hence it stifles innovation. 0. https://www.theregister.com/2020/02/12/mycroft_patent_troll/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/02/12/mycroft_patent_troll/ 1. https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348 https://patents.google.com/patent/US9794348 2. https://patents.google.com/patent/US10491679 https://patents.google.com/patent/US10491679

prhrb 4y ago

That's very sad

jayruss 4y ago

I'm super bummed to hear this. I got my order in very early and am fortunate to have actually received mine. The unit itself is pretty bulky, it turns on/off lights via home assistant well, but feels pretty half baked because it doesn't do much more than that.

bdowling 4y ago

> But what truly killed the company and product, he claimed, were expenses related to ongoing litigation. Some of this cost includes defending against the lawsuit alleging that Mycroft and its principals initiated or called for a campaign of cyber attacks and harassment against the lawyer for the patentee and his family. [0] [0] See, e.g., Tumey L.L.P. et al v. Mycroft AI Inc. et al Case No. 4:21-cv-00113 (W.D. Mo.) https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/egpbkqlzqvq/IP%20PATENTS%20HARASSMENT%20complaint.pdf https://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/legaldocs/egpbkqlzqvq/...

lrvick 4y ago

Had the MyCroft team made a dedicated funding project for their legal defense, I would have gladly funded it as would many others, because fuck patent trolls. Too many open source projects deal with this sort of thing in secret until it is too late. We really need an open source project patent troll defense fund that reigns millions in legal hell down on the first to try to hit any company protected under it including counter-suing for damages until it sinks them. Also hire private investigators to find the real names and backgrounds of every asshole on the other side of the suit, and anyone who supports them. Make everything public to the furthest extent of the law and socially bankrupt them all. We need public scorched earth to send a message anyone else that tries to hit any other protected projects.

pabs3 4y ago

I liked how the GNOME community dealt with their patent troll. IIRC the patent is no longer allowed to be enforced.

jzebedee 4y ago

Very disappointing to see. I knew something was up since Mike Hansen, the engineer maintaining their Mimic3 offline TTS model, mentioned being let go in the open GitHub issues. https://github.com/MycroftAI/mimic3 https://github.com/MycroftAI/mimic3 Mike seems to have kept the effort going with his larynx2 project. I was thrilled at the results their model produced so I hope to see more from it. https://github.com/rhasspy/larynx2 https://github.com/rhasspy/larynx2