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Toxic gases connected to Ohio train derailment cause concern
- QuarterReptile 4y agoIt would actually be interesting to take a vacation to the media bubble of someone who thinks that there is not a huge problem there. Painting in broad strokes, the distrust is there for the "first, distrust corporations" left and the "first, distrust the media and big government" right. I don't imagine there are many people wholly outside those camps, at least not on something like this.
- brobdingnagians 4y agoI think it is mostly all together, "distrust big corporations that are obviously corrupting the government and media". Big corporations that have large political clout and donations to media and then use that to cover for nefarious actions that would normally be illegal and horrifically unethical. When you have corporations writing your laws, they will cover for themselves, even when it is at the cost of human life and voter constituencies.
- jghn 4y agoBoth sides correctly believe the big corporations work against their side. However they both incorrectly believe those corps work for the other side
- iinnPP 4y agoAs a member of neither camp, my reasoning: Money means far too much. We can fix a lot of problems by any of the following: - Making marketing illegal and imprisonment for violators starting at CEO and working down - Taking opinion out of the news and imprisoning violators starting at CEO and working down - Having corporatations/government agencies which break laws face criminal consequences starting at CEO/Top rank and working down. - Removal of costs for education and imprisoning any people cheating the system, starting at the top and working down. - A global food program for rice(?) and bean(?) that ensures no belly is ever without at least some nutrients. -A global housing program to ensure every person is able to be sheltered and stable. In this instant case(assuming what I have read is true and if not, notice the point tackling that) we have some heads of some departments going to jail, whoever actually caused the strike to end can go to jail, the people in charge of basically doing a chemical terrorist attack can all go to jail as well. The people suffering could just temporarily move to new shelter and avoid chemicals. But frankly, none of that would be needed because people in power would finally have a single reason to give a single shit. We wouldn't be here discussing such an absurdity for the nth day in a row. Just imagine for a moment dying because of this incident... Be that person today, because before you know it, you will be that person by force.
- h2odragon 4y agoRecall when there was an imminent Rail Workers' strike in the news? Which Congress bravely stepped in and prevented? Weren't safety issues like this part of the workers' complaints? There were multiple sightings of axles on fire before the accident: https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2023/02/10/east-palestine-train-derailment-video-fire-axle-alert/stories/202302100070 https://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2023/02/10/...
- overthemoon 4y agoDefinitely. https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rules-before-ohio-derailment/ https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rule...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- Frost1x 4y agoI suspect we're seeing more and more of these issues due to corner cutting in various industries. Air travel has already been a tight margin industry and take at look at all the air related issues we've seen recently, from FAA systems down to mass cancelations due to infrastructure to the recent runway conflicts and accidents we've seen. Speaking from anecdotal experience, over the years this constant push for more complex and efficient work from individuals has lead to me cutting more corners than I ever wanted to and producing more questionable products and services in the name of efficiency. Hiring contract workers for some household work I've done seems to be a lot of the same as well. I think we as a society need to come to the realization that growth demands can't always be met by piling more costs and work on people. Much of that rock has been squeezed dry, we need to start looking and managing expectations based on growth from new innovative process changes, technology, or shifts in cultural expectations as far as growth goes, at least that's my opinion for whatever it's worth.
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoIndustries like airlines and railroad have the problem where you can't cut the corners that can be tastefully and carefully cut because once upon a time someone went overboard, hands were wrung, and a law or rule was made. So then when you're squeezed you cut some corner no sane person would cut with predictable results. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that the railroad had implemented the XKCD 28hr day or something dumb like that because that was their only way to squeeze more man hours out of the month without violating the law or violating their union contracts. Edit: not to say the 28hr day is dumb
- fedreserved 4y ago[dead]
- RobotToaster 4y agoSo they deliberately ignited it? Knowing vinyl chloride when burned releases hydrogen chloride, a chemical weapon?
- shadowgovt 4y agoYes, because the alternative was that it would ignite on its own time, eventually, and release it when the area wasn't evacuated. Controlled burn of volatiles is one of the tools in a firefighter's toolbelt for dealing with a HAZMAT situation.
- m348e912 4y agoGood summary here: https://twitter.com/RaleighFam/status/1622948184476483585 https://twitter.com/RaleighFam/status/1622948184476483585 Fair point that it may explode anyway.
- shadowgovt 4y agoThis is a good summary of the situation. One thing the speaker left out is that hydrochloric acid is heavier than air, so while the reaction does result in a bunch of hydrochloric acid, it should react with things in the local environment very quickly to make a hot mess of the immediate environment but not to spread out into the larger ecosystem.
- paulmd 4y agoHonestly that's the type of data that would help calm the situation a bit. Five cars of vinyl chloride, three cars of diethylene glycol, and two cars of oil are the problem children at this point. At least the quantities involved aren't too large, it wasn't a whole train of vinyl chloride. Still preventable though and things aren't getting any safer from here if the railroads have anything to say about it. And the local wildlife getting sick is still concerning... if the measurements say everything is fine and the local wildlife is dying, you aren't measuring what needs to be measured.
- 4y ago
- beowulfey 4y agoAlthough the reddit comments are interesting, it may be better to change this link to the original linked AP news article.
- YPCrumble 4y agoReddit (and now HN) is the only source that shows this on the front page - I wouldn't have heard about it otherwise. Corporate news outlets have kept it from the front page.
- colpabar 4y agoA reporter was literally arrested for reporting on it. https://archive.ph/esy2M https://archive.ph/esy2M
- Chronoyes 4y ago[flagged]
- colpabar 4y agoWell, I provided an archived link to an ABC article to back up my claim, and you have provided nothing to back up yours. You also rudely implied that I don’t know how to consume news media. Why should I, or anyone else, believe you? edit: and why did you create a new account to make this claim?
- 34679 4y agoI'm not going to beat around the bush here: You are lying. The charges were trespassing and disorderly conduct. The reporter was in the middle of a live report when the governor began a speech and the police asked him to be quiet before arresting him. The governor apologized and offered a one on one interview after the reporter's release.
- jklinger410 4y agouser: Chronoyes created: 38 minutes ago karma: 1
- BaculumMeumEst 4y ago> Residents are concerned about long-term effects of low-grade exposure. > “There’s all that smoke and all those chemicals in there,” said Mason Shields, who lives in East Palestine and visited an aid center outside the evacuation zone. “I’m wondering if it’s even going to be safe for people to return within the next week or month or however long.” Generally speaking, I read the news because I want to learn facts about a topic. If I wanted to read the thoughts of some random person who is feeling anxious about something they’re ignorant about, I would go on social media.
- zelphirkalt 4y agoPeoples' feelings and sentiments about things that are happening are also facts, and none too unimportant, since feelings and sentiments are often the basis for their decisions or their government's decisions, which results in new facts. Yes, we want factual reporting, but that people have emotions and fears is also a fact, that has influence on future events.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- JustSomeNobody 4y agoIf these thoughts were not recorded, I'm sure some executive would say the town simply isn't concerned, therefore, all is well. Therefore, these ARE facts.
- pancrufty 4y agoI found these useless facts to be recorded in such detail. “People are concerned about future livability” is plenty details.
- greenie_beans 4y agoshow don't tell
- 4y ago
- lylejantzi3rd 4y agoHere's something for your daily dose of "that's strange:" In 2021 residents of East Palestine, Ohio were extras in filming a train derailment scene for the movie "White Noise"(2022). "Ratner, 37, is in a traffic jam scene, sitting in a line of cars trying to evacuate after a freight train collided with a tanker truck, triggering an explosion that fills the air with dangerous toxins." https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/11/health/ohio-train-derailment-white-noise/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/11/health/ohio-train-derailment-...
- dcist 4y agoThis odd fact will spawn thousands of conspiracy videos and crisis actor accusations. Cue ominous music…
- alchemist1e9 4y agoDerailment can be a result of sabotage. The location is near major food and water sources. So while not exactly a conspiracy yet, it seems important to understand exactly what occurred in this derailment.
- csomar 4y agoHaving taken a few rides on America’s rails, I don’t think it needs any sabotage. It’s collapsing on its own.
- lylejantzi3rd 4y agoThat's what makes it such a great target. The decaying state of our infrastructure makes it easy to sabotage in subtle ways and then blame it on negligence.
- sambull 4y agoAlso a lack of proper physical safety measures. Known safety improvements that were recently blocked[0] specifically the requirement to run hazards/flammable liquids with ECP Brakes which reducing stopping distance by >50% and also prevent cars from building pressure in between better braking cars and derailing. [0] https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rules-before-ohio-derailment/ https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rule...
- YPCrumble 4y agoHow much should people care about this who live in various radiuses? I.e., within 200 miles, is there zero cause for concern? Or is the type of thing that will do something like remove five years of life on average for people within five miles, one year within 100 miles, one month within 300 miles, etc.?
- JustSomeNobody 4y agoWe should all be concerned no matter the radius. This will happen elsewhere if nothing is done to address the issues. And right now, far too many people are silent on this.
- DoneWithAllThat 4y ago[flagged]
- JustSomeNobody 4y agoSeriously? Is that the new head in the sand argument, "That's AI!"?
- Clent 4y agoAgreed. We should not wait to be concerned. Those who are in the immediate radius should be immediately concerned but the rest of us need to be warry. I want to believe a burning river will get movement on this stuff but with the political climate I could see that being shrugged off since it's happened before so no big deal. It's all quite insane. We are shortening our live expectancy as a nation in a measurable ways with proven solutions but instead we just shrug it off and do nothing.
- nickjj 4y agoI know nothing about this field but I remember when California had really bad wildfires, when it was happening (in 2020 or 2021? It all blends together) there were charts showing air quality levels across the US. I'm in NY and I visibly saw different colored clouds when the "smoke clouds" made their way over here. I have no idea if the same thing applies to this train's chemicals but that is a case where there was a coast to coast impact on something that travels in the air.
- sschueller 4y agoWhat is very frustrating is that health effects can be slow as in 20-30 years. By then the people who committed the crime are long gone or will claim the statute has expired. Another thing that is done is just sell the company and then the new owner claims that was the predecessor and that the new company no longer have any liability. Ala Union Carbide or even Monsanto. In fact one company recently said they only by the assets not the liabilities which is absurd (might have been Bayer).
- molopolo24 4y agoI think the recent example is Johnson & Johnson were they bundled all their asbestos liabilities into a subsidiary which is now bankrupt. Roughly something like that, Matt Levine from Bloomberg had a good write up on it.
- syntaxing 4y agoSo how screwed is Pittsburgh?
- Chronoyes 4y ago[flagged]
- paganel 4y agoHow is this not a "failure of capitalism"?
- dsfyu404ed 4y agoIf it happened in Venezuela would it be a failure of communism? If it happened in Iran would it be a failure of theocracy? Of f-ing course not. When you start talking about big organizations with tons of legacy rule-making and policy there tends to be a lot of misalignment of incentives that pops up over the years. It doesn't really matter the societal structure. I'm betting this is a classic "when everyone is responsible nobody is" type of failure you tend to get in organizations that have double and triple redundant rules to prevent failure but no realistic way to do your job without shirking some of your responsibility.
- Chronoyes 4y agoDo these accidents happen regularly in capitalist countries such as Sweden, Norway and Germany? If not then perhaps the problem is not capitalism but America's regulatory system.
- malermeister 4y agoHave you ever considered that the problem with America's regulatory system might be capitalism? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
- paganel 4y ago> Do these accidents happen regularly in capitalist countries such as Sweden, Norway and Germany Don't know about those countries but I was in the general geographic area when this accident in Rouen happened, in 2019 [1]. The same as in this case, the main media (i.e. the Paris newspapers) pretty much ignored it, buried it in their 20th page or something, that's when they weren't calling really concerned people out as "paranoids". Luckily for me I was just a tourist in Normandy back then, so I got out of the area pretty fast. Almost forgot it, Buffett himself was one of the major shareholders in Lubrizol. He even had the audacity to call it just an "unfortunate story" a couple of years later [2]. So, yes, I pretty much regard this as a failure of capitalism. Later edit: This job [3] of picking up dead fish after an environmental disaster should have been done by a government-run agency. That way they would have correctly assessed the damages, the most likely causes, the compensations for those affected, the measures to be taken so that a similar thing doesn't happen in the future. Instead it looks like a private company has been employed to clear up the mess, in pure capitalistic fashion. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubrizol_factory_fire_in_Rouen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubrizol_factory_fire_in_Rouen [2] https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffett-berkshire-hathaway-scope-lubrizol-france-fire-insurance-144833189.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffett-berkshire-hath... [3] https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/status/1625048386293633025 https://twitter.com/CitizenFreePres/status/16250483862936330...
- gonzo41 4y agoThis seems like it should be a bigger story.
- petodo 4y agoIt should, but UFO UFO UFO! I've lost faith in intelligence of HN users after they downvoted into oblivion anyone sceptical about COVID "vaccines" and pushed official safe and effective propaganda. It's same with this baloon smokescreen, notice how nobody talks about Nord Stream 2 sabotage by US, which was like 1 day affair, while they entertrain us with this UFO nonsense for days already. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34760483 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34760483
- Sebb767 4y ago> notice how nobody talks about Nord Stream 2 sabotage by US, which was like 1 day affair This was discussed thoroughly when the incident happened and the recent news were just some allegations by a reporter, without actual new evidence. Doesn't seem like the balloon story is a distraction, especially since it's rather US-focused, unlike the Nordstream incident.
- petodo 4y ago> This was discussed thoroughly when the incident happened Ah yeah, right, I guess that's also when investigation was finished within hours since the sabotage happened. For US it's distraction from Ohio toxic air as bonus. What I would be more affraid - non-existent UFO on par with Iraqi WMD or toxic air? That's tough one...
- sschueller 4y agoSomeone in the reddit thread posted this video on Dow and DuPont: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRmwppLFL90 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRmwppLFL90 Infuriating.
- mattacular 4y agoI see all the staunch supporters of deregulation across the board that normally come out of the woodwork on HN are strangely absent.
- rubyist5eva 4y agoReminding me of my younger days, during my lolbertarian phase where I thought people would do the right thing and have safety procedures in place because "market forces" would shut them down if people died. To be that naive again...
- nonethewiser 4y agoLibertarian or anarchist? Because libertarians do think the government should regulate externalities.
- runako 4y ago[flagged]
- sschueller 4y agoWell you know how they always say "the market will regulate itself"? The issue they like to forget is that you or a family member may be part of the first 346 dead from the Boeing Max disaster or you live in Palestine, Ohio before the market regulates itself.
- kneebonian 4y agoI mean you could argue that part of this was exactly the result of government intervention is one of the strikes that railway workers were working for was better safety rules and more time off and then Congress forced the strike to end.
- rescripting 4y agoGovernment intervention and government regulation are not the same thing.
- jmyeet 4y agoThis accident is America in a nutshell: 1. Rail companies slashed their workforce for short-term profits and share buybacks, cheered on by Wall Street [1]. Rail workers do not get paid sick leave because of those cuts, prompting Congress to step in an kneecap industrial action aimed at improving safety and working conditions [2]; 2. Obama era rules were proposed for safer brakes (that would've prevented this incident). After lobbying by rail companies, those rules were weakened. The Trump administration scrapped them entirely. The Biden administration and Secretary of Transportation Buttigieg declined to reinstate those rules, let alone make them as tough as originally intended [3]; 3. There are legitimate concerns that this has poisoned the water supply (eg [1]). There are other reports of animals left in East Palestine during evacuation have died; 4. One of the chemicals released (and burned) is vinyl chloride, which becomes hydrochloric acid in contact with water (including moiture in the air). 5. The EPA is doing air testing (eg [5]). Note the company contracted to do the test results: Tetra Tech. This is the same company the US government sued (and some individuals went to prison for) fraud ie falsifying testing to make things appear safer [6]. 6. When a reporter starting asking questions at a news conference about the derailment, such as whether efficiency practices like PSR contributed to the accident, he was arrested [7]; 7. There seems to be little media coverage for what could be an environmental catastrophe. 8. All this while just last week, Biden in the State of the Union address said "Corporations ought to do the right thing" [8]. The only way they will is if you, the government, make them or they sufficiently fear the consequences of not doign the right thing. Why would they when the entire political establishment defends corporate interests (eg against rail workers)? Fines and possibly some payout after a decade of litigation are just the cost of doing business. The leaders responsible for this should end up in jail. [1]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/railroads-are-slashing-workers-cheered-on-by-wall-street-to-stay-profitable-amid-trumps-trade-war/2020/01/02/dc757ed4-1603-11ea-a659-7d69641c6ff7_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/railroads-ar... [2]: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/why-congress-is-intervening-in-a-labor-dispute-between-railway-companies-and-freight-workers https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/why-congress-is-interve... [3]: https://jacobin.com/2023/02/department-of-transportation-train-brake-regulation-ohio-derailment https://jacobin.com/2023/02/department-of-transportation-tra... [4]: https://www.fastcompany.com/90848025/ohio-train-derailment-toxic-chemicals-pvc-spill-fire-disaster https://www.fastcompany.com/90848025/ohio-train-derailment-t... [5]: https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/Roving%20Air%20Monitoring%20Results%20Summary%20Table_Public_20230210.pdf https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/Roving%20Air%20Mo... [6]: https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/U-S-sues-Tetra-Tech-over-Hunters-Point-shipyard-13536013.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/U-S-sues-Tetra-T... [7]: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/08/us/ohio-train-derailment-reporter-arrested.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/08/us/ohio-train-derailment-... [8]: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/2023/02/07/remarks-of-president-joe-biden-state-of-the-union-address-as-prepared-for-delivery/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/speeches-remarks/20...
- destitude 4y agoAnother example of people not taking into account the full life cycle of the products they purchase. Vinyl chloride was one of the main toxic chemicals dumped in this derailment and it is used to make PVC. You might want to think twice about using vinyl siding, windows, flooring, etc..
- moring 4y agoLet me rephrase that: "A toxic cloud was leaked, for all we know caused by subpar safety standards on the other side of the globe, which involved the same chemical that was used to produce my PVC flooring." Based on this reasoning, which flooring (or other construction materials) are acceptable?
- destitude 4y agoThere is huge swath of flooring available that isn't produced from toxic ingredients from wood to linoleum. Most people just don't bother to look.
- pixl97 4y agoI'm assuming you want to go back to lead pipes?
- userbinator 4y agoVinyl chloride. I'm surprised they decided to burn it instead of attempting to contain and recover it, because it surely would've been worth something?
- kibwen 4y agoMy brother lives less than 15 miles downwind from the site of the disaster. He's young, just graduated from trade school, found a welding job in the area and brought his wife and one year-old daughter. In 50 years I'm sure we'll consider this whole region a superfund site and hand out pennies to the people whose lives were completely upended as a result. It's a travesty how this has been handled. Massively rich corporations deflecting blame, lying to the public, and trying to cover up their own malfeasance in the pursuit of relentless greed. Profits over people, as usual.
- pokey00 4y ago> It's a travesty how this has been handled. Massively rich corporations deflecting blame, lying to the public, and trying to cover up their own malfeasance in the pursuit of relentless greed. Profits over people, as usual. Do you have any evidence of this being mishandled, or is this just parroting the reddit narrative?
- croutonwagon 4y agoI was watching the Ohio governor guarantee the safety of the water and environment there and was just thinking to myself "This guy will end up eating these words" as well as "this is why i dont like politicians". He kept quoting the EPA, even after the interviewer mentioned the EPA certificiations didnt consider all the chemicals released. He still kept drilling the science says its fine. As if health science understanding and discoveries arent paved in blood at this point. If i lived int he region i would probably be considering moving.
- zug_zug 4y agoIf he was serious he'd take an oath to drink tap-water from the region.
- aphexddb 4y agoSome of the best reporting on this with actual data is coming from social media (as usual), versus from official sources. Here is someone reviewing the manifest of chemicals and number of spilled train cars: https://www.tiktok.com/@nickdrom/video/7199486059212868910 https://www.tiktok.com/@nickdrom/video/7199486059212868910