5 ms·

You're right, if the future holds the possibility of danger, we should never try to improve anything at all. Better to always stay with the misery we already k

by ep103 4y ago

You're right, if the future holds the possibility of danger, we should never try to improve anything at all. Better to always stay with the misery we already know, and never try to improve our lives. Good point. /s

the_af 4y ago
This is not at all what I said, I suggest you look at HN guidelines. When "we" "improve" other countries, it often doesn't come well. "We" tend to create power vacuums and help the rise of fundamentalist groups. "We" messed up Iraq and neighboring countries. "We" helped create the opportunity for the Islamic Revolution to occur. All of what I'm saying is documented fact, not conspiracy theories. Recent history. All I'm saying is self evident to any thinking person: do not wish for the "collapse" of a nation state. Not unless you are willing to live there during its collapse. Not from the comfort of your home. Having the decency to exercise some restraint before wishing for the collapse of anyone's nation state is a lesson we should have learned by now.
- fromseashore 4y ago
  Have you ever asked yourself, whether you have any right whatsoever to "improve" other countries? It looks like this simple question is very rarely being asked in US..
  - the_af 4y ago
    I'm not from the US and I share the sentiment in the question you're asking. More importantly, I don't think any country has the right to hasten another country's collapse.
- nradov 4y ago
  I am a thinking person and I wish for the collapse of the Iranian, Russian, and Chinese nation states (among others). Some people always have a rough time in a societal collapse, but that would at least offer the possibility of a brighter future instead of perpetual authoritarian oppression. And, selfishly, it would eliminate threats to the US and our allies. I don't think we should intervene military to cause such a collapse. But we should exert peaceful pressure to hasten it, just like we did with the USSR.
  - kunagi7 4y ago
    And the "crazy nineties" happened shortly after USSR's collapse. Hyperinflation, high levels of poverty, poor law enforcement, gang wars and high unemployment where things the average exsoviet citizen had to face in his daily life for years. In some countries this was solved with external intervention (like adhesion to the EU) but others ended up being post-soviet dictatorships. In my humble opinion, we wouldn't have seen this many wars unfold in Eastern Europe if both Yugoslavia's and USSR's collapse had been better organized and supervised. Citizens of countries under oppressive regimes must fight against them... But avoid at all costs a power vacuum to appear.
    - scns 4y ago
      No snark inteded, but how can a collapse be organized better?
      - kunagi7 4y ago
        Sadly it's not something that has an easy answer. Trying to switch systems peacefully without losing total control of a country is not an easy feat. Even countries that managed to do that like Germany's unification, Portugal (Carnation Revolution), Greece (military junta fall) or Spain ended up with regrets and damage that takes generations to cure.
        scns 4y ago
        Germany's unification? A huge mess and the damage is ongoing. Kohl bought votes by setting Ostmark exchange rates to 1:1. This took on all debt of the GDR at full price but got him favour with veryone with money in the bank. He enriched his cronies by selling companies and banks with credits in billions (taxpayer backed) for peanuts. He promised them "Blooming Landscapes" but they got sold out big time. What is blooming there? Fascism.
      - actionfromafar 4y ago
        The USSR collapse was actively organised badly, at least in Russia proper, in the years following 1991. A neoliberal society was transplanted from whole cloth to the people. In reality, a few oligarchs-to-be in various ways acquired for free what had been state property. A ruling elite replaced by another ruling elite who could climb the ladders fast enough. Had the transition not been so chaotic and fast, a lot of grief would have been spared.
- javajosh 4y ago
  The effect you describe is called a "moral hazard".
- gertlex 4y ago
  > All I'm saying is self evident to any thinking person: do not wish for the "collapse" of a nation state. Not unless you are willing to live there during its collapse. Not from the comfort of your home. I guess what's leaving you open here to hostile takes is that you're not mentioning other things to hope for instead, so some number are defaulting to interpreting your comments as "the status quo in Iran is fine".
  - the_af 4y ago
    Ah, but I can be asked about what I think and I will happily reply: I do not think the status quo of Iran is fine. I dislike Islamic theocracies and I don't think Iran does well in public freedom. I think it is a tragedy that Iran used to be closer to a democracy (yes, with a king and all, but still) and Western interference created the conditions for both a dictatorship and the horrible Islamic theocracy that came later and is still in power today. I hope the Iranians get a better deal (hopefully without being part of some power game by external nations), because they deserve it. I do not wish any families living in Iran to go through a "collapse", especially not a violent one. See? If people reply to my comments with reasonable questions, I reply in a similar tone. When people go in full attack mode, they get worse responses. Which is the tone that HN should favor?
  - somenameforme 4y ago
    There's one common logical error we all often make, and it's becoming more relevant by the day. We naturally see things as being either a good choice or a bad choice. But in reality, you're often not choosing between a good choice and a bad choice, but between a bad choice and a horrible choice. So focusing on the bad choice being bad doesn't really therefore suggest that the other choice is any better!
    - the_af 4y ago
      Thanks. It's surprising to me that this needs stating, but it apparently does, here on HN.
    - kaba0 4y ago
      Exactly. This is the exact logic people fail at when it comes to medication side effects. Sure, the vaccine has a tiny chance for this and that negative side effect, but you are not choosing between getting the vaccine and gambling on the side effect, vs not taking any risk, but gambling on not taking a vaccine and having a higher chance of catching the virus which has orders of magnitude higher chance for way worse side effects. It is a tradeoff with a quite clear better shot (pun semi-intended)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mighty_donkey 4y ago
Well said...the comment seemed a little shockingly too close to the Islamic Republic's propaganda...
- the_af 4y ago
  Yes, I'm an Iranian secret agent, if you look at my comments history everything I've ever wrote since I joined points to this. (Pro tip: Islamic Republic propaganda wouldn't point to the rise of their own movement as a bad thing, like I did, so your suspicion is illogical). From HN guidelines: assume good faith. Are you doing this?
  - mighty_donkey 4y ago
    I'm sure you're a great person and not a secret agent (I mean this lol). But anyone who is even slightly following this situation (or has lived through it), will know that the argument you present is the exact kind of propaganda that is used by authoritarian regimes to make people fearful of change. And so yes, I believe I have every right to state that your comment has a close resemblance to State TV
    - Pigalowda 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - cuteboy19 4y ago
    If you read Lenin, he would describe this situation as a "useful idiot"
    - the_af 4y ago
kerpotgh 4y ago
[dead]

by ep103 4y ago

the_af 4y ago

This is not at all what I said, I suggest you look at HN guidelines. When "we" "improve" other countries, it often doesn't come well. "We" tend to create power vacuums and help the rise of fundamentalist groups. "We" messed up Iraq and neighboring countries. "We" helped create the opportunity for the Islamic Revolution to occur. All of what I'm saying is documented fact, not conspiracy theories. Recent history. All I'm saying is self evident to any thinking person: do not wish for the "collapse" of a nation state. Not unless you are willing to live there during its collapse. Not from the comfort of your home. Having the decency to exercise some restraint before wishing for the collapse of anyone's nation state is a lesson we should have learned by now.

fromseashore 4y ago
Have you ever asked yourself, whether you have any right whatsoever to "improve" other countries? It looks like this simple question is very rarely being asked in US..
- the_af 4y ago
  I'm not from the US and I share the sentiment in the question you're asking. More importantly, I don't think any country has the right to hasten another country's collapse.
nradov 4y ago
I am a thinking person and I wish for the collapse of the Iranian, Russian, and Chinese nation states (among others). Some people always have a rough time in a societal collapse, but that would at least offer the possibility of a brighter future instead of perpetual authoritarian oppression. And, selfishly, it would eliminate threats to the US and our allies. I don't think we should intervene military to cause such a collapse. But we should exert peaceful pressure to hasten it, just like we did with the USSR.
- kunagi7 4y ago
  And the "crazy nineties" happened shortly after USSR's collapse. Hyperinflation, high levels of poverty, poor law enforcement, gang wars and high unemployment where things the average exsoviet citizen had to face in his daily life for years. In some countries this was solved with external intervention (like adhesion to the EU) but others ended up being post-soviet dictatorships. In my humble opinion, we wouldn't have seen this many wars unfold in Eastern Europe if both Yugoslavia's and USSR's collapse had been better organized and supervised. Citizens of countries under oppressive regimes must fight against them... But avoid at all costs a power vacuum to appear.
  - scns 4y ago
    No snark inteded, but how can a collapse be organized better?
    - kunagi7 4y ago
      Sadly it's not something that has an easy answer. Trying to switch systems peacefully without losing total control of a country is not an easy feat. Even countries that managed to do that like Germany's unification, Portugal (Carnation Revolution), Greece (military junta fall) or Spain ended up with regrets and damage that takes generations to cure.
      - scns 4y ago
        Germany's unification? A huge mess and the damage is ongoing. Kohl bought votes by setting Ostmark exchange rates to 1:1. This took on all debt of the GDR at full price but got him favour with veryone with money in the bank. He enriched his cronies by selling companies and banks with credits in billions (taxpayer backed) for peanuts. He promised them "Blooming Landscapes" but they got sold out big time. What is blooming there? Fascism.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      The USSR collapse was actively organised badly, at least in Russia proper, in the years following 1991. A neoliberal society was transplanted from whole cloth to the people. In reality, a few oligarchs-to-be in various ways acquired for free what had been state property. A ruling elite replaced by another ruling elite who could climb the ladders fast enough. Had the transition not been so chaotic and fast, a lot of grief would have been spared.
javajosh 4y ago
The effect you describe is called a "moral hazard".
gertlex 4y ago
> All I'm saying is self evident to any thinking person: do not wish for the "collapse" of a nation state. Not unless you are willing to live there during its collapse. Not from the comfort of your home. I guess what's leaving you open here to hostile takes is that you're not mentioning other things to hope for instead, so some number are defaulting to interpreting your comments as "the status quo in Iran is fine".
- the_af 4y ago
  Ah, but I can be asked about what I think and I will happily reply: I do not think the status quo of Iran is fine. I dislike Islamic theocracies and I don't think Iran does well in public freedom. I think it is a tragedy that Iran used to be closer to a democracy (yes, with a king and all, but still) and Western interference created the conditions for both a dictatorship and the horrible Islamic theocracy that came later and is still in power today. I hope the Iranians get a better deal (hopefully without being part of some power game by external nations), because they deserve it. I do not wish any families living in Iran to go through a "collapse", especially not a violent one. See? If people reply to my comments with reasonable questions, I reply in a similar tone. When people go in full attack mode, they get worse responses. Which is the tone that HN should favor?
- somenameforme 4y ago
  There's one common logical error we all often make, and it's becoming more relevant by the day. We naturally see things as being either a good choice or a bad choice. But in reality, you're often not choosing between a good choice and a bad choice, but between a bad choice and a horrible choice. So focusing on the bad choice being bad doesn't really therefore suggest that the other choice is any better!
  - the_af 4y ago
    Thanks. It's surprising to me that this needs stating, but it apparently does, here on HN.
  - kaba0 4y ago
    Exactly. This is the exact logic people fail at when it comes to medication side effects. Sure, the vaccine has a tiny chance for this and that negative side effect, but you are not choosing between getting the vaccine and gambling on the side effect, vs not taking any risk, but gambling on not taking a vaccine and having a higher chance of catching the virus which has orders of magnitude higher chance for way worse side effects. It is a tradeoff with a quite clear better shot (pun semi-intended)
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mighty_donkey 4y ago

Well said...the comment seemed a little shockingly too close to the Islamic Republic's propaganda...

the_af 4y ago
Yes, I'm an Iranian secret agent, if you look at my comments history everything I've ever wrote since I joined points to this. (Pro tip: Islamic Republic propaganda wouldn't point to the rise of their own movement as a bad thing, like I did, so your suspicion is illogical). From HN guidelines: assume good faith. Are you doing this?
- mighty_donkey 4y ago
  I'm sure you're a great person and not a secret agent (I mean this lol). But anyone who is even slightly following this situation (or has lived through it), will know that the argument you present is the exact kind of propaganda that is used by authoritarian regimes to make people fearful of change. And so yes, I believe I have every right to state that your comment has a close resemblance to State TV
  - Pigalowda 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- cuteboy19 4y ago
  If you read Lenin, he would describe this situation as a "useful idiot"
  - the_af 4y ago

kerpotgh 4y ago

[dead]