7 ms·

The Loss of Humanity through Consumerism in WALL-E (2019) [pdf]

50 points by pncnmnp 4y ago

klyrs 4y ago
I used to think that the community of hackers would be immune to this. The rise of GPT, CoPilot, StableDiffusion, etc has proven me wrong. We're pretty much fucked.
- CatWChainsaw 4y ago
  Glad I'm not the only one who thinks these developments are utterly unnerving. So many cautionary tales throughout history about the pitfalls of excess and ceding your autonomy, and the "smartest minds" on the Internet are the first ones salivating for this future.
  - npunt 4y ago
    Whenever there's a tradeoff between wisdom and cleverness, the tech industry tends to favor the latter. And the industry moves at such a pace that people in it have gotten quite used to thinking that anything that happened in the past doesn't matter too much. These aren't exactly a recipe for building a durable civilization, despite many positives that do emerge from this engine of innovation.
    - chasd00 4y ago
      “Whatever sells will decide” - bright eyes
    - CatWChainsaw 4y ago
      Scientists, could, should. Only in this case, scientists/developers/entrepreneurs.
  - marban 4y ago
    Not just the smartest minds; the dumbest minds and self-proclaimed AI alchemists are also promoting the shit out of it.
    - CatWChainsaw 4y ago
      If there was ever a time for a winter, now would be it. Not too optimistic on that front, though.
  - FleurBouquet 4y ago
    [dead]
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dw_arthur 4y ago
  Yea, I don't see how the value of human life doesn't keep going down at this point. We ignore each other when we're face to face by using our phones. We don't value what other people write because it takes too much time and effort to read. Now we're generating content for each person's tastes. I could go on and on about this, but it's horrible how devalued being a person who wants to contribute to society has become.
  - HKH2 4y ago
    If people are unable to discuss plot minutiae any more, that doesn't seem like a great loss. When stories don't have official versions, they're far more personal and communal (Where are folk stories today?) We are just dealing with an individualist Tower of Babel accelerated by technology, consumerism and mass media. It's come to its inevitable conclusion.
    - CatWChainsaw 4y ago
      "personal" and "communal" seem opposed. Especially since we're talking about entertainment Babel. Society functions better when "norms" are held across enough of the population, when there's shared experience. This just sounds like we're building ourselves Matrix pods and there isn't even a sentient AI at the helm to blame. How bleak.
      - HKH2 4y ago
        Definitely. > "personal" and "communal" seem opposed. Sure. They always will be to some extent. I need to think of a better word. A healthy society is made from people being personal, as in expressing themselves, even if it is somewhat awkward or unattractive at times, because it leads to curiosity and life. Now it's all too easy to be a passive consumer, which is not really personal at all. > Society functions better when "norms" are held across enough of the population, when there's shared experience. I think it's even stronger than that - how can you have a society without norms? The role of older people is to maintain them, but now everyone has surrogate parents and grandparents.
- mrshadowgoose 4y ago
  > I used to think that the community of hackers would be immune to this I'm not really sure why you would think this. Hackers use tools to amplify their intent/will. Hackers are also human beings, who generally are interested in cutting the drudgery out of their lives. The fascination seems obvious. > We're pretty much fucked This opinion strikes me as the classic case of "I don't like how other people are (or are going to be) living their lives. How dare they!". If mostly everyone is comfortable, happy and (within reason) has access to all the things they want, why is this so offensive to you? As we (hopefully) approach a post-scarcity, AI-supported society, I totally agree that the average level of insularity will increase dramatically. So many of our day-to-day interactions are solely due to us needing to (begrudgingly) cooperate to live our lives, and people will just opt-out of those interactions. But that frees up so much time to spend with the ones we actually want to socialize with. In such a future, there's nothing stopping you from "maintaining your humanity" with other like-minded individuals. Inflicting hardship on others is not a requirement for that.
- carabiner 4y ago
  All of the hackers were hired by Google (and rest of MAANG) to help target ads and promote consumerism.
- Ancalagon 4y ago
  I mean arguably hackers are already affected by this. Look at how much less the average software engineer understands the hardware internals of the computers they work with these days, even on a basic level.
px43 4y ago
Was anyone blown away by any parts of this analysis? It kind of just seems like someone watched the movie and summarized the key messages, which I would hope any given 8 year old, who the movie is targeted to, would be able to do on their own. I can appreciate that some people like to watch movies just for the flashy lights and silly voices, and might have missed the fact that the movie was trying to make some important points about consumerism. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding who this write-up is targeted to, and I feel like I'm missing some key piece of information that would make everything make sense.
- avgcorrection 4y ago
  I’m never blown away by Perils Of Cheeseburgers cautionary tales.
- datashaman 4y ago
  Every YouTube channel has a highest comment where someone describes the obvious message in the video. And everyone piles in and agrees. Many memes have a banner that says: this is funny. We are living in an age where people need signposting of basic meaning.
  - enkid 4y ago
    This isn't a new thing. Shakespeare started Romeo and Juliet with a plot synopsis.
  - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
    People don't need the signposts. The signs get put up because we reward doing so. Us lemmings give these low effort comments upvotes and virtue points so the monkey brain of the sign-poster is incentivized to do it more. Even on HN is this behavior rampant.
  - Ancalagon 4y ago
    It’s like that old saying: imagine someone at the 50th percentile of intelligence. Now realize half the people in the (US/other country/world) are less intelligent than they are.
notmindthegap 4y ago
One thing I couldn’t understand about the movie was that if humans were relegated to nothing more than bags of flesh to be serviced, why wouldn’t the AI just end the species altogether?
- realce 4y ago
  Alignment worked far, far too effectively.
- bena 4y ago
  The ship's core directive is to keep humanity safe. The ship is on the verge of sentience, but not quite there.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    Maybe it’s not a question of sentience but pleasure. Why do many smart humans use so much of their time devising ways to have more sex? Because fulfilling the instinctive urge is pleasurable on a different level than intellectual work. Maybe for the AI, pursuit of its core directive is similarly pleasurable in an axiomatic way.
    - alpyne 4y ago
      axiomatic I see what you did there https://pixar.fandom.com/wiki/Axiom https://pixar.fandom.com/wiki/Axiom
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      Username checks out.
- Sharlin 4y ago
  Why would it?
  - notmindthegap 4y ago
    What does it have to benefit? Pleasure?
PheonixPharts 4y ago
A slightly more nuanced take from Mark Fisher's brilliant Capitalist Realism: > A film like Wall-E exemplifies what Robert Pfaller has called ‘interpassivity’: the film performs our anti-capitalism for us, allowing us to continue to consume with impunity.
bentt 4y ago
Who is upvoting this obviously undergrad level research paper?
- fullstackchris 4y ago
  because it's cOoL and totally relevant to cHaT GpT honestly i'll be happy when we collectively get over this lame hype
  - trieste92 4y ago
    +1
freefaler 4y ago
If you want to bookmark it or TTS read it there is a web copy here: https://ff-txt.blogspot.com/2023/02/the-loss-of-humanity-through.html https://ff-txt.blogspot.com/2023/02/the-loss-of-humanity-thr...
spiritplumber 4y ago
This reads like something a chatbot would write.

50 points by pncnmnp 4y ago

I used to think that the community of hackers would be immune to this. The rise of GPT, CoPilot, StableDiffusion, etc has proven me wrong. We're pretty much fucked.

CatWChainsaw 4y ago
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks these developments are utterly unnerving. So many cautionary tales throughout history about the pitfalls of excess and ceding your autonomy, and the "smartest minds" on the Internet are the first ones salivating for this future.
- npunt 4y ago
  Whenever there's a tradeoff between wisdom and cleverness, the tech industry tends to favor the latter. And the industry moves at such a pace that people in it have gotten quite used to thinking that anything that happened in the past doesn't matter too much. These aren't exactly a recipe for building a durable civilization, despite many positives that do emerge from this engine of innovation.
  - chasd00 4y ago
    “Whatever sells will decide” - bright eyes
  - CatWChainsaw 4y ago
    Scientists, could, should. Only in this case, scientists/developers/entrepreneurs.
- marban 4y ago
  Not just the smartest minds; the dumbest minds and self-proclaimed AI alchemists are also promoting the shit out of it.
  - CatWChainsaw 4y ago
    If there was ever a time for a winter, now would be it. Not too optimistic on that front, though.
- FleurBouquet 4y ago
  [dead]
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
dw_arthur 4y ago
Yea, I don't see how the value of human life doesn't keep going down at this point. We ignore each other when we're face to face by using our phones. We don't value what other people write because it takes too much time and effort to read. Now we're generating content for each person's tastes. I could go on and on about this, but it's horrible how devalued being a person who wants to contribute to society has become.
- HKH2 4y ago
  If people are unable to discuss plot minutiae any more, that doesn't seem like a great loss. When stories don't have official versions, they're far more personal and communal (Where are folk stories today?) We are just dealing with an individualist Tower of Babel accelerated by technology, consumerism and mass media. It's come to its inevitable conclusion.
  - CatWChainsaw 4y ago
    "personal" and "communal" seem opposed. Especially since we're talking about entertainment Babel. Society functions better when "norms" are held across enough of the population, when there's shared experience. This just sounds like we're building ourselves Matrix pods and there isn't even a sentient AI at the helm to blame. How bleak.
    - HKH2 4y ago
      Definitely. > "personal" and "communal" seem opposed. Sure. They always will be to some extent. I need to think of a better word. A healthy society is made from people being personal, as in expressing themselves, even if it is somewhat awkward or unattractive at times, because it leads to curiosity and life. Now it's all too easy to be a passive consumer, which is not really personal at all. > Society functions better when "norms" are held across enough of the population, when there's shared experience. I think it's even stronger than that - how can you have a society without norms? The role of older people is to maintain them, but now everyone has surrogate parents and grandparents.
mrshadowgoose 4y ago
> I used to think that the community of hackers would be immune to this I'm not really sure why you would think this. Hackers use tools to amplify their intent/will. Hackers are also human beings, who generally are interested in cutting the drudgery out of their lives. The fascination seems obvious. > We're pretty much fucked This opinion strikes me as the classic case of "I don't like how other people are (or are going to be) living their lives. How dare they!". If mostly everyone is comfortable, happy and (within reason) has access to all the things they want, why is this so offensive to you? As we (hopefully) approach a post-scarcity, AI-supported society, I totally agree that the average level of insularity will increase dramatically. So many of our day-to-day interactions are solely due to us needing to (begrudgingly) cooperate to live our lives, and people will just opt-out of those interactions. But that frees up so much time to spend with the ones we actually want to socialize with. In such a future, there's nothing stopping you from "maintaining your humanity" with other like-minded individuals. Inflicting hardship on others is not a requirement for that.
carabiner 4y ago
All of the hackers were hired by Google (and rest of MAANG) to help target ads and promote consumerism.
Ancalagon 4y ago
I mean arguably hackers are already affected by this. Look at how much less the average software engineer understands the hardware internals of the computers they work with these days, even on a basic level.

px43 4y ago

Was anyone blown away by any parts of this analysis? It kind of just seems like someone watched the movie and summarized the key messages, which I would hope any given 8 year old, who the movie is targeted to, would be able to do on their own. I can appreciate that some people like to watch movies just for the flashy lights and silly voices, and might have missed the fact that the movie was trying to make some important points about consumerism. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding who this write-up is targeted to, and I feel like I'm missing some key piece of information that would make everything make sense.

avgcorrection 4y ago
I’m never blown away by Perils Of Cheeseburgers cautionary tales.
datashaman 4y ago
Every YouTube channel has a highest comment where someone describes the obvious message in the video. And everyone piles in and agrees. Many memes have a banner that says: this is funny. We are living in an age where people need signposting of basic meaning.
- enkid 4y ago
  This isn't a new thing. Shakespeare started Romeo and Juliet with a plot synopsis.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  People don't need the signposts. The signs get put up because we reward doing so. Us lemmings give these low effort comments upvotes and virtue points so the monkey brain of the sign-poster is incentivized to do it more. Even on HN is this behavior rampant.
- Ancalagon 4y ago
  It’s like that old saying: imagine someone at the 50th percentile of intelligence. Now realize half the people in the (US/other country/world) are less intelligent than they are.

notmindthegap 4y ago

One thing I couldn’t understand about the movie was that if humans were relegated to nothing more than bags of flesh to be serviced, why wouldn’t the AI just end the species altogether?

realce 4y ago
Alignment worked far, far too effectively.
bena 4y ago
The ship's core directive is to keep humanity safe. The ship is on the verge of sentience, but not quite there.
- pavlov 4y ago
  Maybe it’s not a question of sentience but pleasure. Why do many smart humans use so much of their time devising ways to have more sex? Because fulfilling the instinctive urge is pleasurable on a different level than intellectual work. Maybe for the AI, pursuit of its core directive is similarly pleasurable in an axiomatic way.
  - alpyne 4y ago
    axiomatic I see what you did there https://pixar.fandom.com/wiki/Axiom https://pixar.fandom.com/wiki/Axiom
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    Username checks out.
Sharlin 4y ago
Why would it?
- notmindthegap 4y ago
  What does it have to benefit? Pleasure?

PheonixPharts 4y ago

A slightly more nuanced take from Mark Fisher's brilliant Capitalist Realism: > A film like Wall-E exemplifies what Robert Pfaller has called ‘interpassivity’: the film performs our anti-capitalism for us, allowing us to continue to consume with impunity.

bentt 4y ago

Who is upvoting this obviously undergrad level research paper?

fullstackchris 4y ago
because it's cOoL and totally relevant to cHaT GpT honestly i'll be happy when we collectively get over this lame hype
- trieste92 4y ago
  +1

freefaler 4y ago

If you want to bookmark it or TTS read it there is a web copy here: https://ff-txt.blogspot.com/2023/02/the-loss-of-humanity-through.html https://ff-txt.blogspot.com/2023/02/the-loss-of-humanity-thr...

spiritplumber 4y ago

This reads like something a chatbot would write.