5 ms·

This is poppycock. Here's a response: https://erininthemorn.substack.com/p/missouri-anti-trans-whistleblower https://erininthemorn.substack.com/p/missouri-anti-

This is poppycock. Here's a response: https://erininthemorn.substack.com/p/missouri-anti-trans-whistleblower https://erininthemorn.substack.com/p/missouri-anti-trans-whi...

not_a_shill 4y ago
Do you have a refutation that's a length most people would be willing to read? I don't need to keep hearing about the author's problems with misgendering.
- sverona 4y ago
  I'm sorry it's uncomfortable. So is getting misgendered.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- mkoryak 4y ago
  The original article is pretty long, so it makes sense that the refutation might also be long. I skimmed both. It feels kind of shitty to be asking for a tldr or a summary.
  - not_a_shill 4y ago
    I'm not asking for a tldr, and I don't need a point by point refutation of someone's personal experiences. I'm asking for them to write it in a more readable format. (Even you admit you skimmed it, and didn't really read it!) It's missing the forest from the trees, and non persuasive to me.
- xrd 4y ago
  Thanks for pointing that out. I was watching for "misgendering" when reading it. And I did read the whole thing! I actually found the misgendering part relevant. If Jamie Reed was as progressive as she claims, wouldn't that be something she would do "correctly?" I suppose you could say she no longer believes in trans identities, so that's why she isn't willing to do it anymore. But it feels like she is attacking the medical establishment and not the people, and as such would support what I'm assuming 100% of her patients desire, no? And, if you were to accept that she is writing for a conservative audience, it follows that that crowd would be turned off by using she when talking about someone born with a penis. I found the rebuttal compelling and I'm struggling a lot with this issue. The fact that so many medical organizations support the current care guidelines feels very contradictory to the assertions made by JR. And as the rebuttal author notes, JR was an intake worker, with limited access to the full story of these patients, and without proper medical training to do a full assessment. All in all, both articles are worth a read. After reading them both, I did feel like JR's was a well coordinated hit piece with dubious assertions, but would love to hear a rebuttal of the rebuttal!
  - arp242 4y ago
    > I actually found the misgendering part relevant. If Jamie Reed was as progressive as she claims, wouldn't that be something she would do "correctly?" The thing is we don't know what "correct" is; we don't know the patients, we don't know how she interacted with them, we don't know what they preferred, etc. The author sees patients in quite early stages, and many may well have referred to themselves by the biological pronouns. It gets much more complicated around the edges than some people pretend. It's an easy enough cudgel to use, and sometimes it's appropriate, but here it's just a distraction at best, and FUD at worst. > And as the rebuttal author notes, JR was an intake worker, with limited access to the full story of these patients, and without proper medical training to do a full assessment. There's a lot of FUD surrounding that in the rebuttal; obviously the author of that knows even less about the case than Jamie Reed, and there's lots of assumptions about how good she was or wasn't familiar with the case. Besides, we can do this the other way too: is Erin Reed a doctor? Does she have medical training? Does she do full assessments? The entire point of Jamie's story was that not everyone with vague issues surrounding gender at a fairly young ages has gender dysphoria. I don't know if that's true or not, but merely being transgender doesn't mean anything here; your experience doesn't really provide any value, and is quite likely to bias you. What worked well for you doesn't necessarily work well for others. That is probably a good summary of the entire allegation/conflict: "the trans community is very biased towards what worked well for them personally, and refuse to consider that it doesn't work for everyone".
    - xrd 4y ago
      All good points. Thanks. Your last statement was interesting: "the trans community is very biased towards what worked well for them personally, and refuse to consider that it doesn't work for everyone." You could add "non" in front of trans and it would probably be true as well, no? I just happen to know a bunch of trans people who feel like the dominant culture doesn't really serve them well. I trust that they have thought through it well, and know how it impacts them more than you have. To me this whole conflict really seems less about trans people and non trans people. It's about people that don't trust the medical establishment and those that do. There are a lot of questions all over the place if you look there, and I'm not sure where I stand there.
- justsomehnguy 4y ago
  "no she wrong and she misgenders" Read the first one starting with "Jamie starts right out of the gate with right wing talking points designed to paint transgender people as being a “trend” or “social contagion.”" If you are okay with the provided debunk proofs then...
api 4y ago
FTA: “Left handedness also exploded when left handed people were accommodated…” This is in general why I’m always skeptical of these moral panics. When something is destigmatized and it’s a thing that has been there beneath the surface the whole time, it is going to suddenly look like there’s an epidemic of it. The history of left handedness is a rabbit hole I encourage people to go down. It’s truly bizarre and fascinating and sometimes downright sadistic.
- nullc 4y ago
  You missed an opportunity to use a phrase like "learn the sinister history of left-handedness".
bavhahv 4y ago
[flagged]
- AussieWog93 4y ago
  Regardless of your thoughts on what she has to say, misgendering her is disrespectful and unproductive.
  - bavhahv 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - fourseventy 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - howinteresting 4y ago
      Ah, yes, the "biological pronouns" guy. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound to any reasonable person? Gender is a model we impose on reality, not reality itself. Reality itself says that gender dysphoria, and the associated concept of gender identity, exists.
      - __pache__ 4y ago
        [flagged]
      - anon291 4y ago
        [flagged]
        Niksko 4y ago
        [dead]
arp242 4y ago
That article – but it's more of a rant than article – is written in such bad faith and laced with personal insults and accusations – some of which are extremely tenuous – that any real information it may contain are lost to all but everyone who already agreed with it. Going off on rants about "whistleblower" in scare-quotes, "manufactured controversy", "right wing talking points" and "anti-trans scree" is not helpful, it's part of the problem.
- chownie 4y ago
  For anyone else reading along taking the parent comment to heart, having read the article I couldn't disagree more and would suggest you read it for yourself rather than take this commenters review at face value. The write-up is comprehensive, goes through all Jamie Reed's points and discusses why she isn't a reliable narrator. It doesn't read as a rant at all to me.
- ghqst 4y ago
  But... what if that's what this is? Being aware of the biases and position of an author is always helpful to more clearly evaluate.
  - arp242 4y ago
    They're suspected biases, suspected positions, and suspected motives, gleaned from vague hints. I think little is more corrosive to constructive discourse than trying to guess at people's motives and "true positions".
ghqst 4y ago
I agree with this response, but it would probably be a good idea to have government regulation on trans healthcare to some extent. Just not to this overwhelming degree of banning all of it.
- sverona 4y ago
  Perhaps. But that's not the world we live in. Both DeSantis and Trump have recently said if elected next year they would effectively outlaw gender-affirming healthcare for everyone, of any age. This is saber-rattling --- a threat to do something that will kill people like me for no apparent reason other than they find us disgusting because we're different.
  - ghqst 4y ago
    It really has become a race to see who can be more of a terrible fascist.

This is poppycock. Here's a response: https://erininthemorn.substack.com/p/missouri-anti-trans-whistleblower https://erininthemorn.substack.com/p/missouri-anti-trans-whi...

not_a_shill 4y ago

Do you have a refutation that's a length most people would be willing to read? I don't need to keep hearing about the author's problems with misgendering.

sverona 4y ago
I'm sorry it's uncomfortable. So is getting misgendered.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mkoryak 4y ago
The original article is pretty long, so it makes sense that the refutation might also be long. I skimmed both. It feels kind of shitty to be asking for a tldr or a summary.
- not_a_shill 4y ago
  I'm not asking for a tldr, and I don't need a point by point refutation of someone's personal experiences. I'm asking for them to write it in a more readable format. (Even you admit you skimmed it, and didn't really read it!) It's missing the forest from the trees, and non persuasive to me.
xrd 4y ago
Thanks for pointing that out. I was watching for "misgendering" when reading it. And I did read the whole thing! I actually found the misgendering part relevant. If Jamie Reed was as progressive as she claims, wouldn't that be something she would do "correctly?" I suppose you could say she no longer believes in trans identities, so that's why she isn't willing to do it anymore. But it feels like she is attacking the medical establishment and not the people, and as such would support what I'm assuming 100% of her patients desire, no? And, if you were to accept that she is writing for a conservative audience, it follows that that crowd would be turned off by using she when talking about someone born with a penis. I found the rebuttal compelling and I'm struggling a lot with this issue. The fact that so many medical organizations support the current care guidelines feels very contradictory to the assertions made by JR. And as the rebuttal author notes, JR was an intake worker, with limited access to the full story of these patients, and without proper medical training to do a full assessment. All in all, both articles are worth a read. After reading them both, I did feel like JR's was a well coordinated hit piece with dubious assertions, but would love to hear a rebuttal of the rebuttal!
- arp242 4y ago
  > I actually found the misgendering part relevant. If Jamie Reed was as progressive as she claims, wouldn't that be something she would do "correctly?" The thing is we don't know what "correct" is; we don't know the patients, we don't know how she interacted with them, we don't know what they preferred, etc. The author sees patients in quite early stages, and many may well have referred to themselves by the biological pronouns. It gets much more complicated around the edges than some people pretend. It's an easy enough cudgel to use, and sometimes it's appropriate, but here it's just a distraction at best, and FUD at worst. > And as the rebuttal author notes, JR was an intake worker, with limited access to the full story of these patients, and without proper medical training to do a full assessment. There's a lot of FUD surrounding that in the rebuttal; obviously the author of that knows even less about the case than Jamie Reed, and there's lots of assumptions about how good she was or wasn't familiar with the case. Besides, we can do this the other way too: is Erin Reed a doctor? Does she have medical training? Does she do full assessments? The entire point of Jamie's story was that not everyone with vague issues surrounding gender at a fairly young ages has gender dysphoria. I don't know if that's true or not, but merely being transgender doesn't mean anything here; your experience doesn't really provide any value, and is quite likely to bias you. What worked well for you doesn't necessarily work well for others. That is probably a good summary of the entire allegation/conflict: "the trans community is very biased towards what worked well for them personally, and refuse to consider that it doesn't work for everyone".
  - xrd 4y ago
    All good points. Thanks. Your last statement was interesting: "the trans community is very biased towards what worked well for them personally, and refuse to consider that it doesn't work for everyone." You could add "non" in front of trans and it would probably be true as well, no? I just happen to know a bunch of trans people who feel like the dominant culture doesn't really serve them well. I trust that they have thought through it well, and know how it impacts them more than you have. To me this whole conflict really seems less about trans people and non trans people. It's about people that don't trust the medical establishment and those that do. There are a lot of questions all over the place if you look there, and I'm not sure where I stand there.
justsomehnguy 4y ago
"no she wrong and she misgenders" Read the first one starting with "Jamie starts right out of the gate with right wing talking points designed to paint transgender people as being a “trend” or “social contagion.”" If you are okay with the provided debunk proofs then...

api 4y ago

FTA: “Left handedness also exploded when left handed people were accommodated…” This is in general why I’m always skeptical of these moral panics. When something is destigmatized and it’s a thing that has been there beneath the surface the whole time, it is going to suddenly look like there’s an epidemic of it. The history of left handedness is a rabbit hole I encourage people to go down. It’s truly bizarre and fascinating and sometimes downright sadistic.

nullc 4y ago
You missed an opportunity to use a phrase like "learn the sinister history of left-handedness".

bavhahv 4y ago

[flagged]

AussieWog93 4y ago
Regardless of your thoughts on what she has to say, misgendering her is disrespectful and unproductive.
- bavhahv 4y ago
  [flagged]
- fourseventy 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - howinteresting 4y ago
    Ah, yes, the "biological pronouns" guy. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound to any reasonable person? Gender is a model we impose on reality, not reality itself. Reality itself says that gender dysphoria, and the associated concept of gender identity, exists.
    - __pache__ 4y ago
      [flagged]
    - anon291 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - Niksko 4y ago
        [dead]

arp242 4y ago

That article – but it's more of a rant than article – is written in such bad faith and laced with personal insults and accusations – some of which are extremely tenuous – that any real information it may contain are lost to all but everyone who already agreed with it. Going off on rants about "whistleblower" in scare-quotes, "manufactured controversy", "right wing talking points" and "anti-trans scree" is not helpful, it's part of the problem.

chownie 4y ago
For anyone else reading along taking the parent comment to heart, having read the article I couldn't disagree more and would suggest you read it for yourself rather than take this commenters review at face value. The write-up is comprehensive, goes through all Jamie Reed's points and discusses why she isn't a reliable narrator. It doesn't read as a rant at all to me.
ghqst 4y ago
But... what if that's what this is? Being aware of the biases and position of an author is always helpful to more clearly evaluate.
- arp242 4y ago
  They're suspected biases, suspected positions, and suspected motives, gleaned from vague hints. I think little is more corrosive to constructive discourse than trying to guess at people's motives and "true positions".

ghqst 4y ago

I agree with this response, but it would probably be a good idea to have government regulation on trans healthcare to some extent. Just not to this overwhelming degree of banning all of it.

sverona 4y ago
Perhaps. But that's not the world we live in. Both DeSantis and Trump have recently said if elected next year they would effectively outlaw gender-affirming healthcare for everyone, of any age. This is saber-rattling --- a threat to do something that will kill people like me for no apparent reason other than they find us disgusting because we're different.
- ghqst 4y ago
  It really has become a race to see who can be more of a terrible fascist.