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PM ordered take down of an unidentified object that violated Canadian airspace
- zaphirplane 4y agoWhy couldn’t the Canadian airforce take down a slow moving air balloon
- bandyaboot 4y agoWell he doesn’t say that it’s a slow moving air balloon. But, I’m guessing it’s simply a matter of the US F-22(s) got there first (they’re quite fast).
- Rapzid 4y agoWhy waste the munitions if the US is willing?
- tamaharbor 4y ago$450k per missile.
- kleene_op 4y agoCouldn't the US force use a laser, like the one they used during their demo for intercepting missiles?
- ianburrell 4y agoThe YAL-1 was a test platform mounting laser on 747. It was retired in 2014. The US is further developing airborne lasers but still working on prototype.
- HWR_14 4y agoPossibly. But it's worth wasting a few missiles if it doesn't let the Chinese know that. Let them waste their money making a balloon armada, and if war breaks out zap them all with a laser.
- lalaland1125 4y agoThe flying object was shot down over northern Canada where the Alaska airbase is closer than the Canadian alternatives (most of Canada's population and airbases are in southern Canada).
- kejaed 4y agoCold Lake, Alberta is one of the two permanent bases for CF-18s, not terribly southern.
- __turbobrew__ 4y agoYou realize that Cold Lake is over 1000km from the closest part of the Yukon? If the UFO was near the alaska border it would be nearly 2000km from cold lake. Eielson afb is less than 500km from the Yukon border. Also the F-22 can super cruise whereas the F-18 cannot.
- kejaed 4y agoYou realize the distance Cold Lake is from the Yukon doesn’t have a whole lot to do with how southern Cold Lake is relative to the rest of Canada right? There’s a reason the base is where it is. I’m well aware of the CF-188 or F/A-18’s capabilities (or lack thereof compared to the F-22), from when I worked on them, sometimes in Cold Lake. ;)
- __turbobrew__ 4y agoI was born in Cold Lake so now I have just as useless of a claim to knowledge as you do
- kejaed 4y agoWe both win! Or lose.
- __turbobrew__ 4y ago
- zaphirplane 4y agoWhat’s with the hate. It’s a legitimate question. Canada is a developed country and RCAF has f18 and budget to train pilots Surely it stands out that the prime minister asked another country to enter the Canadian airspace to shoot down an object. I mean wouldn’t a politician consider the optics
- Overtonwindow 4y agoNow every world leader is going to want to shoot down a balloon...
- lalaland1125 4y agoFor full context: We shot down a Chinese spy balloon (confirmed) 8 days ago over the Atlantic ocean. We then shot down an unknown flying object yesterday over Alaska. Today we shot down another unknown flying object over Canada. The government hasn't released any details about the objects shot down either yesterday or today.
- givemeethekeys 4y agoSounds like they’re just hamming it up after that “spy” balloon.
- HWR_14 4y agoOr it's politically defensive. A lot of Republicans objected (properly? for political advantage? to encourage contributions?) objected to the way the previous balloon was handled. So this could be a more aggressive stance to avoid that again.
- joenathanone 4y agoI wonder if they are being labeled as 'unknown flying objects' to avoid more political drama with China.
- derefr 4y agoI think, for it to be considered an "identified" flying object, they'd have to know more than just what country sent it — i.e. they'd have to know a class or designation for it and have an associated doctrine for dealing with it.
- hotpotamus 4y agoI remember a trend of people sending up weather balloons with GoPros a few years back. I would imagine having an F-22 come after it would make for a more exciting video than they normally get (although the "edge of space" footage is already pretty cool).
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- sitkack 4y agoIf we get so cavalier about shooting things down, sounds like a good way to make a mistake. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
- diebeforei485 4y agoUnlikely to make such a mistake when using air-to-air missiles (not surface to air or sea to air).
- sitkack 4y agoYou assume that all future shoot downs will use the same technique.
- diebeforei485 4y agoWell, they should have some sort of visual confirmation. A live satellite view would be equally good.
- IndrekR 4y agoAlso later episodes from 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines_Flight_752 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_International_Airlines... and 2014: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17
- lame-robot-hoax 4y agoIt was an F-22 that could obviously tell whether or not it was shooting down a commercial airliner.
- phpisthebest 4y agoAre you relaying on the visual approach of the pilot, or claiming the F22 has better indent tech than ground / space based tech? F22 (and the F35) are optimized for beyond visual range air-to-air combat, so I am not sure if the pilot visually sees the thing before firing.
- version_five 4y agoNot sure which was first but the thread below got more discussion, including the same ignorant jibes at Canada's air force https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34757042 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34757042
- InTheArena 4y agoKinda amusing that the PM of Canada "ordered" an American jet to shoot down a UFO.
- mshake2 4y agoshows how weak the usa is perceived, that our allies feel comfortable implying that they ordered our military to do something. not really amusing.
- aintgonnatakeit 4y agowhere do you get this stuff?
- mshake2 4y agoIt's a basic understanding of politics and power dynamics
- InTheArena 4y agoIn this case, you are deeply wrong. Anyone looking at NATO and NORAD right now, and thinking - hmmm. Them Americans are weak... are not paying very much attention to the current state of the world.
- mshake2 4y ago>By more than a two-to-one margin, Americans say their country’s influence in the world has been getting weaker rather than stronger in recent years (47% vs. 19%), according to a Pew Research Center survey conducted this past spring. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/12/22/far-more-americans-see-u-s-influence-on-the-world-stage-getting-weaker-than-stronger/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/12/22/far-more-am...
- bandyaboot 4y ago
- themodelplumber 4y agoSpeaking of joint efforts, I admit that part of me hopes this unfolding shootdowns situation could lead to a new DEW line effort. https://www.britannica.com/technology/Distant-Early-Warning-Line https://www.britannica.com/technology/Distant-Early-Warning-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distant_Early_Warning_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distant_Early_Warning_Line https://rclsa-asrlc.org/stories/the-construction-of-the-dew-line/ https://rclsa-asrlc.org/stories/the-construction-of-the-dew-... https://archive.org/details/0575_DEW_Line_Story_20_01_02_00 https://archive.org/details/0575_DEW_Line_Story_20_01_02_00 https://lswilson.dewlineadventures.com/warstories/ https://lswilson.dewlineadventures.com/warstories/ (Or maybe just the long-awaited Spies Like Us sequel...) At this point though it would almost be unsurprising if the conflict somehow escalated from a Chinese balloon shootdown to a UAP/tic tac hot war. These skies are, unconditionally, ourn.
- chipsa 4y agoDEW line still exists, it's just been upgraded: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Warning_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Warning_System
- themodelplumber 4y agoThat's new to me, just coming from the historical DEW Line interest. Seems like it should be fun to learn about, thanks for the link.
- pohl 4y agoThis article's lede is interesting, that the it's only recently that we've been globally tracking this balloon program: https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/10/politics/us-balloon-tracking-method/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/10/politics/us-balloon-tracking-...
- themodelplumber 4y agoAn interesting set of variables here: - The balloons have been known about for years - They are spying, by all credible accounts, on a variety of countries - The US has a lot to lose in such conditions, but has done virtually nothing public about it, until the public raised a cry This makes me wonder how much intel or other leverage the US may have, directly, from the internals of the PLA program itself.
- RobotToaster 4y agoLaunching weather balloons to have them shot down is going to be the next tiktok trend.
- WalterBright 4y agoI wonder if they "shoot" it down with bullets or a missile. Seems to me that bullets would be a lot cheaper. Poking holes in a balloon with bullets will cause it to gradually lose lifting gas, and inevitably come down. It may come down gently, so it can be salvaged and examined. In WW1, balloon busting was a big deal. Pilots found that riddling them with bullets didn't work that well, as the balloon could be reeled down, patched, refilled and sent back up again. But the lifting gas was hydrogen, so the pilots were then armed with tracer bullets, which set the balloons afire and they came down immediately, completely destroyed.
- ianburrell 4y agoIt was shot down with Sidewinder missile like the others. Hitting balloon with cannon is hard when it is at 60,000 ft and fighter is at 50,000 ft. The second and third objects may not have been balloons. Hitting a car-sized object with gun would be hard even if it was at same altitude.
- WalterBright 4y agoA sidewinder is heat seeking. What heat is it latching on to? There's no jet engine on a balloon. Besides, what good is a gun if you can't hit a stationary car-sized object? (And the balloon was much bigger than that.)
- ianburrell 4y agoThe new AIM-9X missile has an imaging sensor which I’m guessing is more sensitive. It works on front of aircraft and missiles. Either it is seeing the reflected light or the object is warmer than space. The F-22 would be going close to Mach 1 while balloon/object is stationary. The balloon was higher altitude which is harder shot and out of range. Very different from dogfighting the gun is meant for. I don’t think any fighters have gun targeting system since the gun is really a backup.
- WalterBright 4y ago
- motohagiography 4y agoIf it was indeed an American F-22 that shot it down, he didn't order it, he acquiesced to having it shot down in his territory. As a canadian, I see it as co-operation, like when another dude sees you struggling and offers to open your beer for you. The announcement is from the PM's twitter account and not an announcement by military leadership, or the Governor General, our head of state, (so no aliens, basically). I'm interpreting our politicians needed to be seen to be involved in this one for some reason. After reading about the first balloon, to me this announcement is like a really nice dinner after forgetting your birthday.
- abdullahkhalids 4y agoDon't decisions like this, where you have 10ish minutes to make the decision, go all the way to the PM of Canada? In that case, don't the relevant military authorities ask him to choose between scaring off the object/escorting it/shooting it down?
- mzs 4y ago>I am in direct contact with NORCOM and monitoring the latest issue over Havre and the northern border. Airspace is closed due to an object that could interfere with commercial air traffic — the DOD will resume efforts to observe and ground the object in the morning. 7:23 PM · Feb 11, 2023 https://twitter.com/RepRosendale/status/1624579901608034306 https://twitter.com/RepRosendale/status/1624579901608034306
- mzs 4y ago> Schumer said he was briefed by the White House's national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, on the most recent object shot down over Canada on Saturday. According to Schumer, intelligence officials believe that object as well as the unknown object shot down over Alaska on Friday and the craft downed over South Carolina waters earlier this month were all balloons. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/3-objects-flying-us-canada-balloons-schumer-congress/story?id=97055660 https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/3-objects-flying-us-canada-b... edit: https://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_3_4885.html https://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_3_4885.html > FDC 3/4885 ZMP PART 1 OF 3 WI..AIRSPACE LAKE MICHIGAN, WI..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS. PURSUANT TO 49 USC 40103(B)(3), THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION (FAA) CLASSIFIES THE AIRSPACE DEFINED IN THIS NOTAM AS 'NTL DEFENSE AIRSPACE'. PILOTS WHO DO NOT ADHERE TO THE FOLLOWING PROC MAY BE INTERCEPTED, DETAINED AND INTERVIEWED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT/ SECURITY PERSONNEL. ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ADDITIONAL ACTIONS MAY ALSO BE TAKEN AGAINST A PILOT WHO DOES NOT COMPLY WITH THE RQMNTS OR ANY SPECIAL INSTRUCTIONS OR PROC ANNOUNCED IN THIS NOTAM: A) THE FAA MAY TAKE ADMINISTRATIVE ACTION, INCLUDING IMPOSING CIVIL PENALTIES AND THE SUSPENSION OR REVOCATION OF AIRMEN CERTIFICATES; OR B) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY PURSUE CRIMINAL CHARGES, INCLUDING CHARGES UNDER 49 USC SECTION 46307; C) THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT MAY USE DEADLY FORCE AGAINST THE AIRBORNE ACFT, IF IT IS DETERMINED THAT THE ACFT POSES AN IMMINENT SECURITY THREAT; OR D) UAS OPERATORS WHO DO NOT COMPLY WITH APPLICABLE AIRSPACE 2302121730-PERM END PART 1 OF 3 FDC 3/4885 ZMP PART 2 OF 3 WI..AIRSPACE LAKE MICHIGAN, WI..TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTIONS ARE WARNED THAT PURSUANT TO 10 U.S.C. SECTION 130I AND 6 U.S.C. SECTION 124N, THE DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE (DOD), THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY (DHS) OR THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE (DOJ) MAY TAKE SECURITY ACTION THAT RESULTS IN THE INTERFERENCE, DISRUPTION, SEIZURE, DAMAGING, OR DESTRUCTION OF UNMANNED AIRCRAFT DEEMED TO POSE A CREDIBLE SAFETY OR SECURITY THREAT TO PROTECTED PERSONNEL, FACILITIES, OR ASSETS. PURSUANT TO 14 CFR 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, ALL ACFT FLT OPS ARE PROHIBITED: WI AN AREA DEFINED AS 454714N0872341W TO 454714N0853619W TO 443222N0853729W TO 443222N0872231W TO THE POINT OF ORIGIN. SFC-30,000' MSL EFFECTIVE 2302121730 UNTIL PERM. EXCEPTIONS: A) NATIONAL SECURITY ACFT OPS UNDER DIRECTION OF DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE; AND 2302121730-PERM END PART 2 OF 3 FDC 3/4885 ZMP PART 3 OF 3 WI..AIRSPACE LAKE MICHIGAN, WI..TEMPORARY FLIGHT B) LAW ENFORCEMENT, AIR AMBULANCE, AND OTHER URGENT GOVERNMENTAL RESPONSE ACFT OPS WITH AUTHORIZATION FROM ATC (ATC MUST SECURE PRE-APPROVAL BY THE ON DUTY NATIONAL TACTICAL SECURITY OPERATIONS AIR TRAFFIC SECURITY COORDINATOR). ALL AIRCRAFT, WHICH ARE ALREADY AIRBORNE WITHIN THE DEFINED AIRSPACE WHEN THIS TFR BECOMES EFFECTIVE, MUST EXIT THE AREA USING THE MOST EXPEDITIOUS ROUTE CONSISTENT WITH SAFETY AND IN COORDINATION WITH ATC AS APPROPRIATE. DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE TEL 850-283-5242 IS THE CDN FACILITY. 2302121730-PERM END PART 3 OF 3