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I believe that the technocratic culture of US medicine is standing in the way of research on intranasal vaccines. What you consistently hear from medical profe

I believe that the technocratic culture of US medicine is standing in the way of research on intranasal vaccines. What you consistently hear from medical professionals is, "we have this proven technology, it works, the objections to it are irrational, can we please just be sensible?" So far, so good… (I'm a bit of a technocrat myself) But why are people so afraid of vaccines in particular? There are all sorts of arguments about autism and turning frogs gay or whatever, but people are still happy to take whatever pills the doctor prescribes and hormone-enriched fast food… what makes vaccines different? It seems pretty clear that people are just afraid of needles, and from an evolutionary biology perspective, that's not irrational at all! But "maybe we should make vaccines that won't scare people" just won't get you anywhere in the US medical establishment. Frightened patients aren't Serious Medicine.

Mountain_Skies 4y ago
People are scared of needles is incredibly dismissive and likely intentionally insulting. People aren't afraid of the needles; they're concerned about the unknown impacts of what's being injected through the needles. While needle phobia exists, it's very small percentage of those who didn't want the mystery chemical cocktail pushed by those who openly told countless "noble" lies. The vast majority of these people have had hundreds of shots over the course of their lives, including many previously well tested and well understood vaccines (none of which required 1984 style rewriting of the dictionary). Can't believe anyone is still pushing what's basically a shame tactic that is typically aimed at pre-adolescents. Do you feel smart or virtuous having posted that dismissive and insulting reductive view of people who don't blindly follow "THE SCIENCE" like you do? It's not the needles! It's the contents! How is that not incredibly obvious?
- Eisenstein 4y ago
  None of this address his main point of 'why the vaccines when pharma has does the same thing a bunch of times to other things yet people still take tylenol (which is demonstrably toxic and causes serious illness and death all the time)'? The same people who refuse the vaccine take unknown substances in 'supplements' which have no regulation at all. It makes no sense. Explain it.
  - oaktrout 4y ago
    I can explain it. Tylenol has been around since 1955 and is only demonstrably toxic in overdoses. The mrna based vaccines have been only used for the past couple years, hence long term side effects are unknown. Not everyone who refuses the vaccine takes supplements. Your comparison is like saying "why don't you take this research chemical ('molly'), you smoke cannabis already".
    - Eisenstein 4y ago
      You didn't explain it, you explained around it. I didn't ask why specifically about tylenol and supplements, I said explain why the outrage over vaccines and not other things.
      - oaktrout 4y ago
        You said "The same people who refuse the vaccine take unknown substances in 'supplements' which have no regulation at all. It makes no sense. Explain it." I replied to that point directly. The "outrage over vaccines and not other things" is in part because the mrna vaccines are new technology. People are hesitant to try something totally new on themselves.
        Eisenstein 4y ago
        The MMR vaccines are not mRNA. You are completely missing the point. See my other comment in this thread if you want a specific breakdown.
        Supermancho 4y ago
        >> "The same people who refuse the vaccine take unknown substances in 'supplements' which have no regulation at all. It makes no sense. Explain it." >> The "outrage over vaccines and not other things" is in part because the mrna vaccines are new technology. People are hesitant to try something totally new on themselves. > The MMR vaccines are not mRNA. You are completely missing the point. Ironic, as you now choose to ignore the explanation. If you failed to explain an implicit assumption, that's ok, as it's hard to communicate over forums. Introducing MMR (there is no reference to this in "another post") as if there was a misunderstanding on the poster's part is a non-sequitor at best and dishonest at worst.
- Eric_WVGG 4y ago
  Because people also get freaked out about vaccines that have been proven to be safe and effective for over a hundred years.
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    > safe and effective Those people maybe not being specialist cannot differentiate those remedies which are "safe" as the poster writes (which equals to "no risks or some risk of mild impact") and those which can have catastrophic impact in the relatively small set of the unlucky.
- bglazer 4y ago
  I think it was perfectly reasonable to take the tact of waiting to see the safety of mRNA vaccines. Now, however, they’re considerably less mysterious than you say they are. Several billion people have now received them, and any honest reading of the evidence from that would strongly support them being very very safe. If there were serious safety problems, we would have seen them undeniably by now.
  - vGPU 4y ago
    Aside from multiple revisions to the list of risks, each adding multiple cardiac side effects.
mdp2021 4y ago
> people are still happy to take whatever pills Are you sure? Do you have numbers to show that (a critical number would be skeptical on one side and careless or trusting on the other)?

Mountain_Skies 4y ago

People are scared of needles is incredibly dismissive and likely intentionally insulting. People aren't afraid of the needles; they're concerned about the unknown impacts of what's being injected through the needles. While needle phobia exists, it's very small percentage of those who didn't want the mystery chemical cocktail pushed by those who openly told countless "noble" lies. The vast majority of these people have had hundreds of shots over the course of their lives, including many previously well tested and well understood vaccines (none of which required 1984 style rewriting of the dictionary). Can't believe anyone is still pushing what's basically a shame tactic that is typically aimed at pre-adolescents. Do you feel smart or virtuous having posted that dismissive and insulting reductive view of people who don't blindly follow "THE SCIENCE" like you do? It's not the needles! It's the contents! How is that not incredibly obvious?

Eisenstein 4y ago
None of this address his main point of 'why the vaccines when pharma has does the same thing a bunch of times to other things yet people still take tylenol (which is demonstrably toxic and causes serious illness and death all the time)'? The same people who refuse the vaccine take unknown substances in 'supplements' which have no regulation at all. It makes no sense. Explain it.
- oaktrout 4y ago
  I can explain it. Tylenol has been around since 1955 and is only demonstrably toxic in overdoses. The mrna based vaccines have been only used for the past couple years, hence long term side effects are unknown. Not everyone who refuses the vaccine takes supplements. Your comparison is like saying "why don't you take this research chemical ('molly'), you smoke cannabis already".
  - Eisenstein 4y ago
    You didn't explain it, you explained around it. I didn't ask why specifically about tylenol and supplements, I said explain why the outrage over vaccines and not other things.
    - oaktrout 4y ago
      You said "The same people who refuse the vaccine take unknown substances in 'supplements' which have no regulation at all. It makes no sense. Explain it." I replied to that point directly. The "outrage over vaccines and not other things" is in part because the mrna vaccines are new technology. People are hesitant to try something totally new on themselves.
      - Eisenstein 4y ago
        The MMR vaccines are not mRNA. You are completely missing the point. See my other comment in this thread if you want a specific breakdown.
        Supermancho 4y ago
        >> "The same people who refuse the vaccine take unknown substances in 'supplements' which have no regulation at all. It makes no sense. Explain it." >> The "outrage over vaccines and not other things" is in part because the mrna vaccines are new technology. People are hesitant to try something totally new on themselves. > The MMR vaccines are not mRNA. You are completely missing the point. Ironic, as you now choose to ignore the explanation. If you failed to explain an implicit assumption, that's ok, as it's hard to communicate over forums. Introducing MMR (there is no reference to this in "another post") as if there was a misunderstanding on the poster's part is a non-sequitor at best and dishonest at worst.
Eric_WVGG 4y ago
Because people also get freaked out about vaccines that have been proven to be safe and effective for over a hundred years.
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > safe and effective Those people maybe not being specialist cannot differentiate those remedies which are "safe" as the poster writes (which equals to "no risks or some risk of mild impact") and those which can have catastrophic impact in the relatively small set of the unlucky.
bglazer 4y ago
I think it was perfectly reasonable to take the tact of waiting to see the safety of mRNA vaccines. Now, however, they’re considerably less mysterious than you say they are. Several billion people have now received them, and any honest reading of the evidence from that would strongly support them being very very safe. If there were serious safety problems, we would have seen them undeniably by now.
- vGPU 4y ago
  Aside from multiple revisions to the list of risks, each adding multiple cardiac side effects.

mdp2021 4y ago

> people are still happy to take whatever pills Are you sure? Do you have numbers to show that (a critical number would be skeptical on one side and careless or trusting on the other)?