6 ms·

To me the more interesting aspect of this research is the possibility to test susceptibility to severe infection. If you know ahead of time you are high risk,

To me the more interesting aspect of this research is the possibility to test susceptibility to severe infection. If you know ahead of time you are high risk, then the treatment and behavior is different than someone who knows they are low risk. Right now we treat everything the same - recommend everyone is vaccinated and everyone wear masks during outbreaks. I’d really like to know how at risk I am, and act accordingly.

n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago
[dead]
AgentOrange1234 4y ago
(Disclaimer: covid averse, lost family member, upset with society for “being done.”) I’m not sure what to think about this. A year+ ago, I would have worried that folks would treat a low-risk evaluation as a permission slip to say “the pandemic is over for me,” stop masking/etc, and thus increase the aggregate spread of the virus to folks who are high risk. But now everyone is already doing that anyway. So yeah, it would be nice to know whether we are high risk or should just let it all go and say whatever.
- throwawaaarrgh 4y ago
  Sometimes I think I'm the only low risk person left on the planet wearing a mask and vaccinating. Then I see old folks or one 30y/o woman in the supermarket wearing a mask, and I remember that this protects them too. There's even some performers asking fans to mask up so high risk people can come to their shows. Gives me a tiny glimmer of hope for humanity.
  - PM_me_your_math 4y ago
    You're still touching things, then touching your face. You're still breathing the same air as everyone. You're still moving through clouds of expelled vapor from everyone who has walked in front of you recently. There is no hermetic seal around your nose and mouth if you wear a mask. Your eyes are exposed to the air. And if you wear the same mask more than once, you are trapping all sorts of bacteria and other nasties in a soup of sweat, oils, and grime on your face. Masks are mostly theater in everything but controlled environments.
    - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
      > You're still touching things, then touching your face. > Your eyes are exposed to the air. I'm not the person you're responding to. Just what I do. The mask covers the mucus membranes, except around the eyes. And I've got glasses with side-shields for the eyes. And an ASTM-III mask over the N95 mask so that I can touch and manipulate the masks without touching the breathing surface of the N95. > You're still breathing the same air as everyone. You're still moving through clouds of expelled vapor from everyone who has walked in front of you recently. There is no hermetic seal around your nose and mouth if you wear a mask. It's a virucidal N95, so besides the filtering also kills much of the virus that it traps. While the filtering is not 100%, the killing on top of the filtering should greatly reduce risk of infection or transmission in the unlikely event I'm infected but don't know it. > Masks are mostly theater in everything but controlled environments. I used to get a respiratory infection about yearly. I haven't had a contagious illness that I am aware of since January 2020. Edit to add: And I take my daily shower after coming home for the day. I have never used a delivery service to grocery shop. I got about one month of work from home before coming back to the job part-time, and was fully back to the job by September or October of 2020.
      - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        I wear an N95 when I go out but only my regular glasses. I too haven't been sick since January 2020. I used to get colds pretty much quarterly, and so it's absolutely worth it to me. If it bothers someone else to see me wearing one that's their problem, I'm not asking them to wear one.
        qup 4y ago
        Has it bothered anyone?
        cableshaft 4y ago
        I get the ocassional weird, sometimes mean look every once in a while, but I can deal with that as long as people don't stop and confront me over it, which thankfully hasn't happened yet, except a single time when some jerk walked past me and baa'd to suggest that I was a sheep back in 2020. I don't even wear a mask everywhere (not since I got vaccinated). I don't once I sit at a table at a restaurant, or at certain social functions. But somehow I still haven't gotten Covid yet (that I'm aware of at least), even after a few known exposures, so I'm guessing either it's helping at least a little bit or I had an asymptomatic case a while back. As far as I know, though, I could still have a moderate-to-bad case of it when I get it. My parents just both got it recently, for example, (that was one of my exposures, since they were helping me clean out my flooded basement just before they got symptoms) and it took both of them over a month before they got over it, and we share genes, so in theory I should have a somewhat rough time once I get it as well.
  - gigibec 4y ago
    [dead]
  - gadders 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - maxerickson 4y ago
      On the other hand, the authors there start their conclusion off with The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions. But it's a short discussion, people can go read it for themselves.
      - unsupp0rted 4y ago
        It's like how condoms aren't that effective because a large subset of people prefer to use nothing instead. Okay sure... but if I'm not in that subset then I'm good.
    - AnonymousPlanet 4y ago
      "The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions." Means they aren't sure themselves, if their results are usable at all. For the individual, one unmasked exposure undoes the entire effort. We're not talking about toxicity. This seems to be clear to the authors aswell. The strongest language in their conclusions reads like this: "There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect." Going from that to "Masks don't work" is quite the leap.
      - gadders 4y ago
        "We included 12 trials (10 cluster‐RCTs) comparing medical/surgical masks versus no masks to prevent the spread of viral respiratory illness (two trials with healthcare workers and 10 in the community). Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of influenza‐like illness (ILI)/COVID‐19 like illness compared to not wearing masks (risk ratio (RR) 0.95, 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.84 to 1.09; 9 trials, 276,917 participants; moderate‐certainty evidence. Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of laboratory‐confirmed influenza/SARS‐CoV‐2 compared to not wearing masks (RR 1.01, 95% CI 0.72 to 1.42; 6 trials, 13,919 participants; moderate‐certainty evidence)."
  - technimad 4y ago
    Honest question: why are you vaccinating while you also identify as low risk?
    - 7speter 4y ago
      > Then I see old folks or one 30y/o woman in the supermarket wearing a mask, and I remember that this protects them too. I have a hard time believing that after 2 years of messaging about why people should take a vaccine that this is an “honest question”
      - mdp2021 4y ago
        > I have a hard time believing that after 2 years of messaging about why You must have forgotten that they have been two years of communicational failures.
        landemva 4y ago
        I just read this January 2023 article by a person with last name Fauci that claims coronaviruses have never been controlled by vaccines. More communication problems or admission of mistakes? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9832587 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9832587 Rethinking next-generation vaccines for coronaviruses, influenzaviruses, and other respiratory viruses David M. Morens, Jeffery K. Taubenberger, and Anthony S. Fauci 'Because these viruses generally do not elicit complete and durable protective immunity by themselves, they have not to date been effectively controlled by licensed or experimental vaccines. In this review, we examine challenges that have impeded development of effective mucosal respiratory vaccines ...'
        latchkey 4y ago
        > with last name Fauci that claims coronaviruses have never been controlled by vaccines Actually, the full text is: "Viruses that replicate in the human respiratory mucosa without infecting systemically, including influenza A, SARS-CoV-2, endemic coronaviruses, RSV, and many other “common cold” viruses, cause significant mortality and morbidity and are important public health concerns. Because these viruses generally do not elicit complete and durable protective immunity by themselves, they have not to date been effectively controlled by licensed or experimental vaccines." The authors of the paper (not just Fauci) named off a group of different viruses, not just a single one. Taken in the stated context, it should make a lot more sense to anyone who reads this stuff.
- gadders 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
    Some masks do work. https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/respiratory-protection-us/products/papr/ https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/respiratory-protection-us/produc...
    - gadders 4y ago
      If you or someone in your family is immuno-suppressed, have at it. Otherwise in terms of risk avoidance you might as well start wearing a crash helmet when you ride the bus just in case.
      - slaw 4y ago
        I like the idea of wearing full face motorcycle helmet in a bus.
      - dehrmann 4y ago
        > If you or someone in your family is immuno-suppressed I'll add that if you're in this situation, you probably want to be masking at home, too.
      - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
        Stormtrooper armor for all!
      - throwawaaarrgh 4y ago
        30,000 die in the US in car accidents every year. crash helmets, race harnesses, and roll cages would save thousands of lives. but I get that some people rather die than wear safety gear.
        TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
        If you've ever seen a motorcycle cop ticket a driver for not wearing theur seatbelt, you would know it's not about safety.
PM_me_your_math 4y ago
Comorbidities have always been indicators of risk. You're more likely high risk if you already have health issues, are morbidly obese, or over the age of 70.
- gadders 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - jasonhansel 4y ago
    When people complain about prejudice against fat people, this is what they mean. I fail to understand why someone's size would make their advice less credible, particularly on topics other than weight loss. If anything, being at higher risk would dispose them to take the virus more seriously. After all, "trying to eat healthy" is rarely successful. The vast majority of dieters do not succeed in achieving long-term weight loss.
    - gadders 4y ago
      [flagged]
      - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
        https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/overweight-and-healthy-the-concept-of-metabolically-healthy-obesity-201309246697 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/overweight-and-healthy-t... "Carrying too many pounds is a solid signal of current or future health problems. But not for everyone. Some people who are overweight or obese mange to escape the usual hazards, at least temporarily. This weight subgroup has even earned its own moniker—metabolically healthy obesity." "But some people who are overweight or obese manage to avoid these changes and, at least metabolically, look like individuals with healthy weights. “Obesity isn’t a homogeneous condition,” says Dr. Frank Hu, professor of nutrition and epidemiology at the Harvard School of Public Health. “It appears that it doesn’t affect everyone in the same ways.”"
anonymouskimmer 4y ago
I particularly like the nose spray application. If even non-susceptible people get in the habit of using a nose spray before starting their day, any contagious viruses that they may already have could be covered with an inactivator upon sneezing them out. Hypothetically this could protect susceptible people who inhale the sneezed out viruses.

n0tth3dro1ds 4y ago

[dead]

AgentOrange1234 4y ago

(Disclaimer: covid averse, lost family member, upset with society for “being done.”) I’m not sure what to think about this. A year+ ago, I would have worried that folks would treat a low-risk evaluation as a permission slip to say “the pandemic is over for me,” stop masking/etc, and thus increase the aggregate spread of the virus to folks who are high risk. But now everyone is already doing that anyway. So yeah, it would be nice to know whether we are high risk or should just let it all go and say whatever.

throwawaaarrgh 4y ago
Sometimes I think I'm the only low risk person left on the planet wearing a mask and vaccinating. Then I see old folks or one 30y/o woman in the supermarket wearing a mask, and I remember that this protects them too. There's even some performers asking fans to mask up so high risk people can come to their shows. Gives me a tiny glimmer of hope for humanity.
- PM_me_your_math 4y ago
  You're still touching things, then touching your face. You're still breathing the same air as everyone. You're still moving through clouds of expelled vapor from everyone who has walked in front of you recently. There is no hermetic seal around your nose and mouth if you wear a mask. Your eyes are exposed to the air. And if you wear the same mask more than once, you are trapping all sorts of bacteria and other nasties in a soup of sweat, oils, and grime on your face. Masks are mostly theater in everything but controlled environments.
  - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
    > You're still touching things, then touching your face. > Your eyes are exposed to the air. I'm not the person you're responding to. Just what I do. The mask covers the mucus membranes, except around the eyes. And I've got glasses with side-shields for the eyes. And an ASTM-III mask over the N95 mask so that I can touch and manipulate the masks without touching the breathing surface of the N95. > You're still breathing the same air as everyone. You're still moving through clouds of expelled vapor from everyone who has walked in front of you recently. There is no hermetic seal around your nose and mouth if you wear a mask. It's a virucidal N95, so besides the filtering also kills much of the virus that it traps. While the filtering is not 100%, the killing on top of the filtering should greatly reduce risk of infection or transmission in the unlikely event I'm infected but don't know it. > Masks are mostly theater in everything but controlled environments. I used to get a respiratory infection about yearly. I haven't had a contagious illness that I am aware of since January 2020. Edit to add: And I take my daily shower after coming home for the day. I have never used a delivery service to grocery shop. I got about one month of work from home before coming back to the job part-time, and was fully back to the job by September or October of 2020.
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      I wear an N95 when I go out but only my regular glasses. I too haven't been sick since January 2020. I used to get colds pretty much quarterly, and so it's absolutely worth it to me. If it bothers someone else to see me wearing one that's their problem, I'm not asking them to wear one.
      - qup 4y ago
        Has it bothered anyone?
        cableshaft 4y ago
        I get the ocassional weird, sometimes mean look every once in a while, but I can deal with that as long as people don't stop and confront me over it, which thankfully hasn't happened yet, except a single time when some jerk walked past me and baa'd to suggest that I was a sheep back in 2020. I don't even wear a mask everywhere (not since I got vaccinated). I don't once I sit at a table at a restaurant, or at certain social functions. But somehow I still haven't gotten Covid yet (that I'm aware of at least), even after a few known exposures, so I'm guessing either it's helping at least a little bit or I had an asymptomatic case a while back. As far as I know, though, I could still have a moderate-to-bad case of it when I get it. My parents just both got it recently, for example, (that was one of my exposures, since they were helping me clean out my flooded basement just before they got symptoms) and it took both of them over a month before they got over it, and we share genes, so in theory I should have a somewhat rough time once I get it as well.
- gigibec 4y ago
  [dead]
- gadders 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - maxerickson 4y ago
    On the other hand, the authors there start their conclusion off with The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions. But it's a short discussion, people can go read it for themselves.
    - unsupp0rted 4y ago
      It's like how condoms aren't that effective because a large subset of people prefer to use nothing instead. Okay sure... but if I'm not in that subset then I'm good.
  - AnonymousPlanet 4y ago
    "The high risk of bias in the trials, variation in outcome measurement, and relatively low adherence with the interventions during the studies hampers drawing firm conclusions." Means they aren't sure themselves, if their results are usable at all. For the individual, one unmasked exposure undoes the entire effort. We're not talking about toxicity. This seems to be clear to the authors aswell. The strongest language in their conclusions reads like this: "There is uncertainty about the effects of face masks. The low to moderate certainty of evidence means our confidence in the effect estimate is limited, and that the true effect may be different from the observed estimate of the effect." Going from that to "Masks don't work" is quite the leap.
    - gadders 4y ago
      "We included 12 trials (10 cluster‐RCTs) comparing medical/surgical masks versus no masks to prevent the spread of viral respiratory illness (two trials with healthcare workers and 10 in the community). Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of influenza‐like illness (ILI)/COVID‐19 like illness compared to not wearing masks (risk ratio (RR) 0.95, 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.84 to 1.09; 9 trials, 276,917 participants; moderate‐certainty evidence. Wearing masks in the community probably makes little or no difference to the outcome of laboratory‐confirmed influenza/SARS‐CoV‐2 compared to not wearing masks (RR 1.01, 95% CI 0.72 to 1.42; 6 trials, 13,919 participants; moderate‐certainty evidence)."
- technimad 4y ago
  Honest question: why are you vaccinating while you also identify as low risk?
  - 7speter 4y ago
    > Then I see old folks or one 30y/o woman in the supermarket wearing a mask, and I remember that this protects them too. I have a hard time believing that after 2 years of messaging about why people should take a vaccine that this is an “honest question”
    - mdp2021 4y ago
      > I have a hard time believing that after 2 years of messaging about why You must have forgotten that they have been two years of communicational failures.
      - landemva 4y ago
        I just read this January 2023 article by a person with last name Fauci that claims coronaviruses have never been controlled by vaccines. More communication problems or admission of mistakes? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9832587 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9832587 Rethinking next-generation vaccines for coronaviruses, influenzaviruses, and other respiratory viruses David M. Morens, Jeffery K. Taubenberger, and Anthony S. Fauci 'Because these viruses generally do not elicit complete and durable protective immunity by themselves, they have not to date been effectively controlled by licensed or experimental vaccines. In this review, we examine challenges that have impeded development of effective mucosal respiratory vaccines ...'
        latchkey 4y ago
        > with last name Fauci that claims coronaviruses have never been controlled by vaccines Actually, the full text is: "Viruses that replicate in the human respiratory mucosa without infecting systemically, including influenza A, SARS-CoV-2, endemic coronaviruses, RSV, and many other “common cold” viruses, cause significant mortality and morbidity and are important public health concerns. Because these viruses generally do not elicit complete and durable protective immunity by themselves, they have not to date been effectively controlled by licensed or experimental vaccines." The authors of the paper (not just Fauci) named off a group of different viruses, not just a single one. Taken in the stated context, it should make a lot more sense to anyone who reads this stuff.
gadders 4y ago
[flagged]
- TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
  Some masks do work. https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/respiratory-protection-us/products/papr/ https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/respiratory-protection-us/produc...
  - gadders 4y ago
    If you or someone in your family is immuno-suppressed, have at it. Otherwise in terms of risk avoidance you might as well start wearing a crash helmet when you ride the bus just in case.
    - slaw 4y ago
      I like the idea of wearing full face motorcycle helmet in a bus.
    - dehrmann 4y ago
      > If you or someone in your family is immuno-suppressed I'll add that if you're in this situation, you probably want to be masking at home, too.
    - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
      Stormtrooper armor for all!
    - throwawaaarrgh 4y ago
      30,000 die in the US in car accidents every year. crash helmets, race harnesses, and roll cages would save thousands of lives. but I get that some people rather die than wear safety gear.
      - TEP_Kim_Il_Sung 4y ago
        If you've ever seen a motorcycle cop ticket a driver for not wearing theur seatbelt, you would know it's not about safety.

PM_me_your_math 4y ago

Comorbidities have always been indicators of risk. You're more likely high risk if you already have health issues, are morbidly obese, or over the age of 70.

gadders 4y ago
[flagged]
- jasonhansel 4y ago
  When people complain about prejudice against fat people, this is what they mean. I fail to understand why someone's size would make their advice less credible, particularly on topics other than weight loss. If anything, being at higher risk would dispose them to take the virus more seriously. After all, "trying to eat healthy" is rarely successful. The vast majority of dieters do not succeed in achieving long-term weight loss.
  - gadders 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - anonymouskimmer 4y ago
      https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/overweight-and-healthy-the-concept-of-metabolically-healthy-obesity-201309246697 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/overweight-and-healthy-t... "Carrying too many pounds is a solid signal of current or future health problems. But not for everyone. Some people who are overweight or obese mange to escape the usual hazards, at least temporarily. This weight subgroup has even earned its own moniker—metabolically healthy obesity." "But some people who are overweight or obese manage to avoid these changes and, at least metabolically, look like individuals with healthy weights. “Obesity isn’t a homogeneous condition,” says Dr. Frank Hu, professor of nutrition and epidemiology at the Harvard School of Public Health. “It appears that it doesn’t affect everyone in the same ways.”"

anonymouskimmer 4y ago

I particularly like the nose spray application. If even non-susceptible people get in the habit of using a nose spray before starting their day, any contagious viruses that they may already have could be covered with an inactivator upon sneezing them out. Hypothetically this could protect susceptible people who inhale the sneezed out viruses.