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Or more importantly, would the same motivators for the military exist for private industries. My example would not be nuclear, but waste in general. I did 5 yea

Or more importantly, would the same motivators for the military exist for private industries. My example would not be nuclear, but waste in general. I did 5 years in the Navy. Out at sea, by regulations, we have really strict standards of how certain materials get disposed. Clean metal, like aluminum cans from the galley can go overboard, into the ocean, and so can food waste. Plastic can't, batteries cant, etc. Do batteries and cut up fuel hoses find their way into the ocean? Yes. Is it because the Navy said so, no. From what I noticed, its about how easy it is to dispose of properly and you could notice it. When someone who made the process easier to dispose of batteries properly, most to everyone did it properly. When they changed out who was in charge of the trash detail and the new person in charge of the trash detail damn near required a 7 page dissertation and interrogation to allow you to turn in your dead batteries, people threw that shit in the ocean late at night when no one was out and about on the skin of the ship. My point being, usually when waste disposal is an issue in the military, its not necessarily because the military doesnt care. Its because the process to do things properly became to grueling for people to put up with (not right, but it happens). Sometimes that grueling process is from big Navy, sometimes it is because DC1 had a bad day and making your day a pain in the ass somehow makes him feel better.

whatshisface 4y ago
So, what you are expressing is one perspective on accidents, and it's true - the one guy who cares about cleaning up a spill is a good guy, the one guy who hoses it into a drain is a bad guy. I would like to offer another one. The water is going to take all of the people who did it right, and all of the people who did it wrong, and average their actions together into a single number, the amount of contamination. On the other side, although an individual person can decide whether they're going to make disposing of those batteries easy or a bureaucratic power trip, when you are at the top and are going to fill 1,000 positions like that, you know in advance that some of them are going to be awful about it. So, from the top like from below, individual personal decisions become fixed quantities. Sending out 1,000 people and allowing 250 of them to make the independent personal decision to do it wrong is really the same thing as doing it wrong yourself, because it's guaranteed to happen. That's essentially the story behind why you should think about accidents as an institutional problem even when they involve bad personal choices on the part of the people who did them. That One Guy is actually hundreds of people and although you can't tell in advance whether one person will do it you know that out of thousands, hundreds will.
- anonymouskimmer 4y ago
  > The water is going to take all of the people who did it right, and all of the people who did it wrong, and average their actions together into a single number, the amount of contamination. I imagine that batteries, for one, would tend to sink to the bottom of the ocean (if not gulped up by a large animal), and would thus cause highly concentrated local contamination. It would really depend on exactly where the batteries were thrown overboard on how much damage each one caused. Otherwise I agree with what you're saying.
- tcmart14 4y ago
  There definitely are roots that can be traced to institutional problems. The case with a certain DC1 who thought being a pain would make him feel better, it is an institutional problem that someone like that was able to get to a position they were in. If someone with that kind of a personality rose up to being a DC1 and supervising the trash crew (although these kinds of duties are usually when someone is sent TAD because their division doesn't want to deal with them), that is a problem. So yea, you can boil it down to institutional problems, however it can be a little tricky because those institutional problems sometimes do not correlate directly.
elil17 4y ago
I think the biggest difference between the military and industry is that the civilian side of the government enforces laws on industry but does not enforce laws on the military. I know many people who would love to not have to deal with their company's waste disposal processes, but the consequences are quite severe (e.g. the fines are huge so you would be fired if you were found out).
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
Do you mean to imply that you're not supposed to throw your dead car batteries into the ocean to help charge the electric eels?
- tcmart14 4y ago
  That is a good one. xD
remote_phone 4y ago
I know people who were so sick and tired of trying to figure out where to dispose of their fluorescent light bulbs that they just threw them to the side of the road on the highway at night. It’s completely undetectable.
- tcmart14 4y ago
  Yup, same issue with e-waste. It can be a pain to properly dispose of your broken 10 year old laptop. So many people don't do it. It just does in the trash can with everything else. Make it easy, people do it, minus a few edge case shitheads. But I'd rather 75 out of 100 people do it right and have 25 shit heads than 75 shit heads and 25 people doing it right.
  - JTbane 4y ago
    I have a bunch of no-name laptop batteries lying around that no one will take. Apparently lithium ion waste is not as valuable as I thought.
  - crote 4y ago
    Does your country not have recycling centers? Over here every municipality has a center where you can just hand in any domestic waste unsuitable for the trash can. It's a bit inconvenient because you have to go out of your way, but it is definitely quite doable. And electronics can be handed in at any store which sells electronics, which includes stores like the equivalent of Walmart or Home Depot. You'll be going there anyways, so it's literally zero extra effort.
    - xp84 4y ago
      Recently I tried to figure out where to send a smashed TV. It was a 50”. Typically they barely sell any TVs smaller than that in the US these days. Best Buy won’t take any TVs for recycling if it’s over a certain screen size. Mine is too big. Once a year or something the town does a e-waste drop off. I’ll have to borrow a car big enough to fit this thing. It’s no wonder so many people toss them in a dumpster.
    - 4y ago
Eduard 4y ago
> Out at sea, by regulations, we have really strict standards of how certain materials get disposed. Clean metal, like aluminum cans from the galley can go overboard, into the ocean, and so can food waste. So inconsistent. Literally trashy if true.
- tcmart14 4y ago
  Not really. Clean metal is fine and so are food products. Clean metal can help form reefs and such, why the Navy sinks ships. Food waste, like apple cores and such, all biodegradable. But the trash has to go somewhere. So things that doesn't really hurt the ocean and break down, it goes in the ocean. Things that can actually hurt the ocean and won't break down get flow off the ship during resupply missions and get disposed of properly on land somewhere.
dTal 4y ago
>Clean metal, like aluminum cans from the galley can go overboard Aren't food cans typically plastic lined?

whatshisface 4y ago

So, what you are expressing is one perspective on accidents, and it's true - the one guy who cares about cleaning up a spill is a good guy, the one guy who hoses it into a drain is a bad guy. I would like to offer another one. The water is going to take all of the people who did it right, and all of the people who did it wrong, and average their actions together into a single number, the amount of contamination. On the other side, although an individual person can decide whether they're going to make disposing of those batteries easy or a bureaucratic power trip, when you are at the top and are going to fill 1,000 positions like that, you know in advance that some of them are going to be awful about it. So, from the top like from below, individual personal decisions become fixed quantities. Sending out 1,000 people and allowing 250 of them to make the independent personal decision to do it wrong is really the same thing as doing it wrong yourself, because it's guaranteed to happen. That's essentially the story behind why you should think about accidents as an institutional problem even when they involve bad personal choices on the part of the people who did them. That One Guy is actually hundreds of people and although you can't tell in advance whether one person will do it you know that out of thousands, hundreds will.

anonymouskimmer 4y ago
> The water is going to take all of the people who did it right, and all of the people who did it wrong, and average their actions together into a single number, the amount of contamination. I imagine that batteries, for one, would tend to sink to the bottom of the ocean (if not gulped up by a large animal), and would thus cause highly concentrated local contamination. It would really depend on exactly where the batteries were thrown overboard on how much damage each one caused. Otherwise I agree with what you're saying.
tcmart14 4y ago
There definitely are roots that can be traced to institutional problems. The case with a certain DC1 who thought being a pain would make him feel better, it is an institutional problem that someone like that was able to get to a position they were in. If someone with that kind of a personality rose up to being a DC1 and supervising the trash crew (although these kinds of duties are usually when someone is sent TAD because their division doesn't want to deal with them), that is a problem. So yea, you can boil it down to institutional problems, however it can be a little tricky because those institutional problems sometimes do not correlate directly.

elil17 4y ago

I think the biggest difference between the military and industry is that the civilian side of the government enforces laws on industry but does not enforce laws on the military. I know many people who would love to not have to deal with their company's waste disposal processes, but the consequences are quite severe (e.g. the fines are huge so you would be fired if you were found out).

BeFlatXIII 4y ago

Do you mean to imply that you're not supposed to throw your dead car batteries into the ocean to help charge the electric eels?

tcmart14 4y ago
That is a good one. xD

remote_phone 4y ago

I know people who were so sick and tired of trying to figure out where to dispose of their fluorescent light bulbs that they just threw them to the side of the road on the highway at night. It’s completely undetectable.

tcmart14 4y ago
Yup, same issue with e-waste. It can be a pain to properly dispose of your broken 10 year old laptop. So many people don't do it. It just does in the trash can with everything else. Make it easy, people do it, minus a few edge case shitheads. But I'd rather 75 out of 100 people do it right and have 25 shit heads than 75 shit heads and 25 people doing it right.
- JTbane 4y ago
  I have a bunch of no-name laptop batteries lying around that no one will take. Apparently lithium ion waste is not as valuable as I thought.
- crote 4y ago
  Does your country not have recycling centers? Over here every municipality has a center where you can just hand in any domestic waste unsuitable for the trash can. It's a bit inconvenient because you have to go out of your way, but it is definitely quite doable. And electronics can be handed in at any store which sells electronics, which includes stores like the equivalent of Walmart or Home Depot. You'll be going there anyways, so it's literally zero extra effort.
  - xp84 4y ago
    Recently I tried to figure out where to send a smashed TV. It was a 50”. Typically they barely sell any TVs smaller than that in the US these days. Best Buy won’t take any TVs for recycling if it’s over a certain screen size. Mine is too big. Once a year or something the town does a e-waste drop off. I’ll have to borrow a car big enough to fit this thing. It’s no wonder so many people toss them in a dumpster.
  - 4y ago

Eduard 4y ago

> Out at sea, by regulations, we have really strict standards of how certain materials get disposed. Clean metal, like aluminum cans from the galley can go overboard, into the ocean, and so can food waste. So inconsistent. Literally trashy if true.

tcmart14 4y ago
Not really. Clean metal is fine and so are food products. Clean metal can help form reefs and such, why the Navy sinks ships. Food waste, like apple cores and such, all biodegradable. But the trash has to go somewhere. So things that doesn't really hurt the ocean and break down, it goes in the ocean. Things that can actually hurt the ocean and won't break down get flow off the ship during resupply missions and get disposed of properly on land somewhere.

dTal 4y ago

>Clean metal, like aluminum cans from the galley can go overboard Aren't food cans typically plastic lined?