4 ms·

My guess is that most USA urban neighborhoods in, say, 1960 (or 1930), met the 15 minute criteria. Still, I'd guess you'd be right that it would be enormously

My guess is that most USA urban neighborhoods in, say, 1960 (or 1930), met the 15 minute criteria. Still, I'd guess you'd be right that it would be enormously expensive and difficult to bring this back. But it was once this way, and it was human decisions that made it not this way. If we want it to be this way again and start, it can be eventually.

duxup 4y ago
I think it is plausible to work towards, much of it. Some of it is fairly low hanging fruit. If you get several of the check boxes but not a coffee shop, high school, restaurant .... that's pretty good, you got a lot of bases covered.
- jrochkind1 4y ago
  For me personally, coffee shops and restaurants within a 15 minute walk is huge for my quality of life. I currently have it... barely.
  - duxup 4y ago
    I think that's a personal preference thing, you pick where you go based on that. Just a bit less essential than say groceries.
    - jrochkind1 4y ago
      I suppose it's all a personal preference thing to some extent -- at least if you have a car to get you further away for whatever it is. But true, different people at different points in their lives, income levels, social positions, and preferences will prioritize different things. The OP list seems pretty good for improving quality of life for a big round population of people at different stages of their lives and social positions. (After all, generational and income diversity in a neighborhood is probably also a plus?) I wish I could make a personal preference to have all of those things in a 15 minute walk from me! It would require moving to a different city probably, and paying much much much more than I do now for living expenses. I think 15 minute walkability actually has would have a much larger impact on quality of life than many people realize. I think if most people could get it without having to trade off between different personal preferences (like being able to afford the rent!), we'd be doing a lot better. Like... nobody needs a coffee shop or everyday restaurant within a 15 minute walk. And if it requires trade-offs, including to affordability, not everyone is going to choose it. But when everyone has one (or ideally several), I think it's going to make neighborhood relationships and connections stronger in general, the people that run into each other at such establishments, or while one (and not necessarily the other) of them are walking to such establishments, the relationships between workers and customers, etc.
      - bluGill 4y ago
        While you don't need those things, the more that is within a 15 minute walk, the more likely you are to walk there. I've seen people who have drove to a neighbors house even though the walk from where they parked on the street was longer than just from their door to door (cutting across the lawn). They did it because that is their habit: they have so few places where they can reasonably walk that it never in occurs to them to walk the few times they could. (the above case was an extreme that they laughed about when they realized it, most people wouldn't drive that trip, but the thinking makes perverse sense)
    - galangalalgol 4y ago
      Grocery, pharmacy, schools, and a public transit stop, only after those would I rate restaurants or coffee shops. This isn't some moral statement about making your own food, outsourifood preparation to a professional makes sense from a specialization standpoint if you can afford it, but if you can't and for daily life, being able to get food and medicine seems a bit higher.
      - bluGill 4y ago
        I include public transit time in my 15 minute city. However you have to always include the worst case: just as your arrive at the stop the vehicle closes its doors and leaves.
kasey_junk 4y ago
It was enormously expensive and difficult to undo that so it’s not at all surprising it’s hard to go back.
nicoburns 4y ago
Politically difficult, yes. Enormously expensive, I'd imagine not. Retrofitting a house to be a cafe/shop isn't that difficult or expensive. And it needn't be done all at once, it could be done gradually over time.
dabbledash 4y ago
I think it's possible that we lost this because, while people do genuinely like it, they like quiet, space, and privacy more.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  I live within 30 seconds walk of 2 cafes, 2 grocery shops, and a pub (I can see them down the street from my window as I type this). And you literally can't hear them from my house. There's also a primary school nearby which occasionally gets noisy, but there's no noise from the shops.
  - kortilla 4y ago
    What? It takes 30 seconds to walk across the street
    - ryukafalz 4y ago
      A very wide street, maybe. Not the sort you're likely to have in a 15 minute city. :)
    - rovolo 4y ago
      It takes a lot longer to walk across a street when you have to wait for a walk signal. City streets can be 1.5-2 lane residential streets which you can cross basically on demand, making them equivalent in time to walking on the sidewalk. Based on an average walking pace of 1.33 m/s (3.0 mph), you can cover 40m in 30 seconds. https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6243731,-122.3250919,18.81z https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6243731,-122.3250919,18.81z The blocks in this section of Seattle are ~80m long, so one block takes 60s to walk. The "Mercer on Summit" apartments on this map are within 1/2 block (30s) from 3 restaurants, 2 bars, and 1 small grocery.
    - nicoburns 4y ago
      I also have to walk along the street a little, and cross a small road that intersects my road. It's still probably less than 30 seconds, but it's close enough. It's 30 seconds if you include walking down the stairs inside my house, slipping my shoes on, etc.
spacemadness 4y ago
My hope is that if not Gen Z then the following generation will push for American cities to get their act together and become better for people to live in. It is going to take a lot of political will to make it work as the entrenched older generations want things to stay the same as always and/or cannot envision a different way of living. A walkable city with car free zones seems like a fantasy and that is a real shame.
- coldpie 4y ago
  It is truly shocking how much damage the car has done to our cities and lives. Here in the Twin Cities, we have three enormous concrete canyons completely dividing up the city[1], destroying any chance at walkability or density for miles. All for the sake of people who don't even live in the cities to drive 30 minutes in their personal luxury steel cages from their suburban mansions to spend 30 hours a week here and then buzz off again. We lose so much to cater to the surburbanites and gain so little. We have a real opportunity to fix this by removing one of them[2], but we're too terrified of change to improve our own lives. So the concrete canyon called I-94 will remain, poisoning the heart of our cities, for at least another four generations. Sigh. [1] Comparison of the Twin Cities before & after the freeways were built: https://twitter.com/SegByDesign/status/1623376761722490881 https://twitter.com/SegByDesign/status/1623376761722490881 [2] https://www.twincitiesboulevard.org/ https://www.twincitiesboulevard.org/
  - j_heffe 4y ago
    Not to mention the opposition of public transportation here. People are already up in arms about the light rail expansion cost, plus the people angry about losing parking on Hennepin Ave for the proposed 24 hr bus lane.
    - coldpie 4y ago
      If you haven't, give your congresspeople & city representatives a ring about the TCB :)
    - bluGill 4y ago
fatnoah 4y ago
>Still, I'd guess you'd be right that it would be enormously expensive and difficult to bring this back. I've moved into and out of downtown Boston over the past 20+ years, and it's been interesting to see this trend actually happen. In the neighborhoods I've lived in, there are usually 1-2 smaller markets that offer convenience at a price, and then a more "traditional" grocery store within 5-10 minutes of walking. Over the years, a few new grocery stores have been built in the urban core, and they've actually been of the "larger traditional" variety. In most cases, they're part and parcel of new development, so the space, loading, and (reduced) parking requirements can be accommodated as part of the build. The key is that the stores are being built concurrently with more housing being developed as well, so the stores are effectively meeting new demand. In my most recent "city phase", I actually had 3 "large format" grocery stores, 2-3 smaller markets, plus the assortment of convenience stores within a 15 minute walk.
Pxtl 4y ago
Imho it was pre-war when it peaked. You look at rust-belt cities that were designed to be suburban but transit-oriented and you see a good balance; 3-bedroom houses where everybody has a back-yard but not necessarily a driveway, and the cities were irrigated with street-cars. Minor arteries would have corner stores and there were local shopping districts.
- bluGill 4y ago
  Those pre-war suburbs often featured larger lots than what modern suburbs do. (not exburbs which get very large).
  - Pxtl 4y ago
    While many modern suburbs have embraced townhomes and other denser form-factors, they have other strategies that result in taking up a lot of space - parking lots, massive wide right-of-way, Euclidean zoning blocking local shops, and heavily redundant road-ways, like arteries that have no development around them at all, just a sidewalk then a fence then some trees and a ditch and then the local road. Every person trying to walk to the artery to catch transit has to cross that. In an old streetcar suburb, the only road wider than 3 cars were the arteries, and those arteries would still be lined with homes if not shops.
- ianburrell 4y ago
  One reason Seattle does well on walkability is that it has a lot of streetcar suburbs.

duxup 4y ago

I think it is plausible to work towards, much of it. Some of it is fairly low hanging fruit. If you get several of the check boxes but not a coffee shop, high school, restaurant .... that's pretty good, you got a lot of bases covered.

jrochkind1 4y ago
For me personally, coffee shops and restaurants within a 15 minute walk is huge for my quality of life. I currently have it... barely.
- duxup 4y ago
  I think that's a personal preference thing, you pick where you go based on that. Just a bit less essential than say groceries.
  - jrochkind1 4y ago
    I suppose it's all a personal preference thing to some extent -- at least if you have a car to get you further away for whatever it is. But true, different people at different points in their lives, income levels, social positions, and preferences will prioritize different things. The OP list seems pretty good for improving quality of life for a big round population of people at different stages of their lives and social positions. (After all, generational and income diversity in a neighborhood is probably also a plus?) I wish I could make a personal preference to have all of those things in a 15 minute walk from me! It would require moving to a different city probably, and paying much much much more than I do now for living expenses. I think 15 minute walkability actually has would have a much larger impact on quality of life than many people realize. I think if most people could get it without having to trade off between different personal preferences (like being able to afford the rent!), we'd be doing a lot better. Like... nobody needs a coffee shop or everyday restaurant within a 15 minute walk. And if it requires trade-offs, including to affordability, not everyone is going to choose it. But when everyone has one (or ideally several), I think it's going to make neighborhood relationships and connections stronger in general, the people that run into each other at such establishments, or while one (and not necessarily the other) of them are walking to such establishments, the relationships between workers and customers, etc.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      While you don't need those things, the more that is within a 15 minute walk, the more likely you are to walk there. I've seen people who have drove to a neighbors house even though the walk from where they parked on the street was longer than just from their door to door (cutting across the lawn). They did it because that is their habit: they have so few places where they can reasonably walk that it never in occurs to them to walk the few times they could. (the above case was an extreme that they laughed about when they realized it, most people wouldn't drive that trip, but the thinking makes perverse sense)
  - galangalalgol 4y ago
    Grocery, pharmacy, schools, and a public transit stop, only after those would I rate restaurants or coffee shops. This isn't some moral statement about making your own food, outsourifood preparation to a professional makes sense from a specialization standpoint if you can afford it, but if you can't and for daily life, being able to get food and medicine seems a bit higher.
    - bluGill 4y ago
      I include public transit time in my 15 minute city. However you have to always include the worst case: just as your arrive at the stop the vehicle closes its doors and leaves.

kasey_junk 4y ago

It was enormously expensive and difficult to undo that so it’s not at all surprising it’s hard to go back.

nicoburns 4y ago

Politically difficult, yes. Enormously expensive, I'd imagine not. Retrofitting a house to be a cafe/shop isn't that difficult or expensive. And it needn't be done all at once, it could be done gradually over time.

dabbledash 4y ago

I think it's possible that we lost this because, while people do genuinely like it, they like quiet, space, and privacy more.

nicoburns 4y ago
I live within 30 seconds walk of 2 cafes, 2 grocery shops, and a pub (I can see them down the street from my window as I type this). And you literally can't hear them from my house. There's also a primary school nearby which occasionally gets noisy, but there's no noise from the shops.
- kortilla 4y ago
  What? It takes 30 seconds to walk across the street
  - ryukafalz 4y ago
    A very wide street, maybe. Not the sort you're likely to have in a 15 minute city. :)
  - rovolo 4y ago
    It takes a lot longer to walk across a street when you have to wait for a walk signal. City streets can be 1.5-2 lane residential streets which you can cross basically on demand, making them equivalent in time to walking on the sidewalk. Based on an average walking pace of 1.33 m/s (3.0 mph), you can cover 40m in 30 seconds. https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6243731,-122.3250919,18.81z https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6243731,-122.3250919,18.81z The blocks in this section of Seattle are ~80m long, so one block takes 60s to walk. The "Mercer on Summit" apartments on this map are within 1/2 block (30s) from 3 restaurants, 2 bars, and 1 small grocery.
  - nicoburns 4y ago
    I also have to walk along the street a little, and cross a small road that intersects my road. It's still probably less than 30 seconds, but it's close enough. It's 30 seconds if you include walking down the stairs inside my house, slipping my shoes on, etc.

spacemadness 4y ago

My hope is that if not Gen Z then the following generation will push for American cities to get their act together and become better for people to live in. It is going to take a lot of political will to make it work as the entrenched older generations want things to stay the same as always and/or cannot envision a different way of living. A walkable city with car free zones seems like a fantasy and that is a real shame.

coldpie 4y ago
It is truly shocking how much damage the car has done to our cities and lives. Here in the Twin Cities, we have three enormous concrete canyons completely dividing up the city[1], destroying any chance at walkability or density for miles. All for the sake of people who don't even live in the cities to drive 30 minutes in their personal luxury steel cages from their suburban mansions to spend 30 hours a week here and then buzz off again. We lose so much to cater to the surburbanites and gain so little. We have a real opportunity to fix this by removing one of them[2], but we're too terrified of change to improve our own lives. So the concrete canyon called I-94 will remain, poisoning the heart of our cities, for at least another four generations. Sigh. [1] Comparison of the Twin Cities before & after the freeways were built: https://twitter.com/SegByDesign/status/1623376761722490881 https://twitter.com/SegByDesign/status/1623376761722490881 [2] https://www.twincitiesboulevard.org/ https://www.twincitiesboulevard.org/
- j_heffe 4y ago
  Not to mention the opposition of public transportation here. People are already up in arms about the light rail expansion cost, plus the people angry about losing parking on Hennepin Ave for the proposed 24 hr bus lane.
  - coldpie 4y ago
    If you haven't, give your congresspeople & city representatives a ring about the TCB :)
  - bluGill 4y ago

fatnoah 4y ago

>Still, I'd guess you'd be right that it would be enormously expensive and difficult to bring this back. I've moved into and out of downtown Boston over the past 20+ years, and it's been interesting to see this trend actually happen. In the neighborhoods I've lived in, there are usually 1-2 smaller markets that offer convenience at a price, and then a more "traditional" grocery store within 5-10 minutes of walking. Over the years, a few new grocery stores have been built in the urban core, and they've actually been of the "larger traditional" variety. In most cases, they're part and parcel of new development, so the space, loading, and (reduced) parking requirements can be accommodated as part of the build. The key is that the stores are being built concurrently with more housing being developed as well, so the stores are effectively meeting new demand. In my most recent "city phase", I actually had 3 "large format" grocery stores, 2-3 smaller markets, plus the assortment of convenience stores within a 15 minute walk.

Pxtl 4y ago

Imho it was pre-war when it peaked. You look at rust-belt cities that were designed to be suburban but transit-oriented and you see a good balance; 3-bedroom houses where everybody has a back-yard but not necessarily a driveway, and the cities were irrigated with street-cars. Minor arteries would have corner stores and there were local shopping districts.

bluGill 4y ago
Those pre-war suburbs often featured larger lots than what modern suburbs do. (not exburbs which get very large).
- Pxtl 4y ago
  While many modern suburbs have embraced townhomes and other denser form-factors, they have other strategies that result in taking up a lot of space - parking lots, massive wide right-of-way, Euclidean zoning blocking local shops, and heavily redundant road-ways, like arteries that have no development around them at all, just a sidewalk then a fence then some trees and a ditch and then the local road. Every person trying to walk to the artery to catch transit has to cross that. In an old streetcar suburb, the only road wider than 3 cars were the arteries, and those arteries would still be lined with homes if not shops.
ianburrell 4y ago
One reason Seattle does well on walkability is that it has a lot of streetcar suburbs.