4 ms·

Do plants engineered to not produce plantable seeds have some kind of advantage, or is it purely so the seed producers can continue selling the seeds? I rememb

Do plants engineered to not produce plantable seeds have some kind of advantage, or is it purely so the seed producers can continue selling the seeds? I remember when I first heard of roundup ready crops as a child, that aspect of it completely baffled me both in why and how they would make plants not replantable.

boppo1 4y ago
>have some kind of advantage Pretty sure it's so you can't collect the newly produced seeds and sell them on the black market to people next season. Basically what you said, but it's not just about preventing people from 're-using' what they bought, but also preventing them from providing it to others.
ch4s3 4y ago
They are far less likely to spread novel genes around the environment.
CommitSyn 4y ago
I believe it's the engineering of other aspects (drought tolerance, growth factors, etc) that make them incapable of producing viable seed - not that the only engineering is to make them unable to put out fertile seed.
pkphilip 4y ago
The only advantage is that these companies can force the farmers to keep buying seeds from them. It is the susbscription based revenue model for agriculture :) https://borgenproject.org/terminator-seeds-threaten-sustainable-farming/ https://borgenproject.org/terminator-seeds-threaten-sustaina...
igvadaimon 4y ago
They get unique characteristics, like all the tomatoes look identical and have long shelf life which is important for customers because they "eat with their eyes". They also taste like shit but who cares, right?
linuxftw 4y ago
The seeds produced are often plantable. For many seeds, especially GMO seeds, the grower needs to acquire a license to the seeds and agrees not to save seeds from planted crops (as you suspect, to ensure income for the seed producer). Other seeds are patented varieties. Typically these are 'hybrids' which are a cross of two varieties of the same plant for whatever specific features they select. These seeds won't 'breed true' so the offspring will likely not be identical to the parents. From what I understand, GMO crops won't have a very stable lineage. Nature tends to select against the genetic modifications, but I do believe most GMOs are replantable today. This is not the case for GMO salmon, which they are trying to sterilize.
- pfdietz 4y ago
  Why would hybrids have to be patented? You are confusing separate things here.
  - linuxftw 4y ago
    Hybrids don't have to be patented, but if they're new varieties, they certainly can be. Similarly, new varieties that aren't necessarily hybrids (eg, once were hybrids and now are stable) can also be patented.
a_bonobo 4y ago
There are no plants engineered to not produce plantable seeds. There's a long-standing moratorium on terminator genes that is generally observed. The reason why you have to rebuy your seeds from the companies is because of hybrid vigor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis It's still not 100% understand how this actually happens (heaps models and results exist), but when you cross two reasonably distantly related parents, the offspring F1 will outperform both. However, if you then backcross the offspring again, you'll lose that hybrid vigor, and your F2 behaves like crap again (often the F2 is also all over the shop in the phenotype, which makes harvesting annoying with different flowering times, different sizes etc.) That's the whole business model of the seed companies: keep on remaking F1s, sell them. There's nothing nefarious or GM about this, it goes back to the 50s and 60s with Norman Borlaug making hybrid F1s in wheat triggering the green revolution.
- bitshiftfaced 4y ago
  I never knew about this. That's interesting. So then hybrid vigor is the reason farmers don't grow their own seeds, which contradicts the article. Obviously the OSS people would know this, so then the purpose must be more about encouraging plant diversity and allowing more companies to sell these varieties to farmers.
  - pfdietz 4y ago
    Hybrid vigor is also why eugenic nightmares are misconstructed. If some nefarious dictator wanted genetic supersoldiers, he'd breed them by hybridizing sickly inbred strains, and then prohibiting the supersoldiers from themselves reproducing.
    - trallnag 4y ago
      can you explain further or maybe link to something? Eugenics can also mean eradicating certain unwanted elements like illnesses or black skin.
      - 4y ago
traverseda 4y ago
Lots of "normal" plants don't produce usable seeds. Basically every apple you've ever had will produce a crab apple tree when planted, if you want to copy that tree you need to take a cutting and propogate that. I suspect that these engineered plants don't have some specific "don't produce seeds" gene added in, they're just hybrids like a liger or a mule.
- pard68 4y ago
  Not quite how apples work and planting an apple seed won't make a "crab apple" -- that is a distinct species of tree. Getting a crab apple from a seed from a store bought apple fruit is the same as planting corn and getting rye.
- kwhitefoot 4y ago
  They are hybrids but unlike mules they are generally fertile whereas mules are frequently infertile. But the second generation produces a range of types with varying growth rates, ripening times, yields, etc.; so it is not really useful to propagate them.
bluGill 4y ago
As others pointed out, such plants don't exist. Plants that don't produce plantable seeds have a big advantage: some seed is spilled every harvest. Farmers rotate crops, if you have corn gorwing in your soybean field that is one of the worst weeds you can have. Not only does the corn take nutrients you intend for your soybeans, it is also providing a host for any corn disease in your field that you are hoping die off now that it doesn't have corn to live in.

boppo1 4y ago

>have some kind of advantage Pretty sure it's so you can't collect the newly produced seeds and sell them on the black market to people next season. Basically what you said, but it's not just about preventing people from 're-using' what they bought, but also preventing them from providing it to others.

ch4s3 4y ago

They are far less likely to spread novel genes around the environment.

CommitSyn 4y ago

I believe it's the engineering of other aspects (drought tolerance, growth factors, etc) that make them incapable of producing viable seed - not that the only engineering is to make them unable to put out fertile seed.

pkphilip 4y ago

The only advantage is that these companies can force the farmers to keep buying seeds from them. It is the susbscription based revenue model for agriculture :) https://borgenproject.org/terminator-seeds-threaten-sustainable-farming/ https://borgenproject.org/terminator-seeds-threaten-sustaina...

igvadaimon 4y ago

They get unique characteristics, like all the tomatoes look identical and have long shelf life which is important for customers because they "eat with their eyes". They also taste like shit but who cares, right?

linuxftw 4y ago

The seeds produced are often plantable. For many seeds, especially GMO seeds, the grower needs to acquire a license to the seeds and agrees not to save seeds from planted crops (as you suspect, to ensure income for the seed producer). Other seeds are patented varieties. Typically these are 'hybrids' which are a cross of two varieties of the same plant for whatever specific features they select. These seeds won't 'breed true' so the offspring will likely not be identical to the parents. From what I understand, GMO crops won't have a very stable lineage. Nature tends to select against the genetic modifications, but I do believe most GMOs are replantable today. This is not the case for GMO salmon, which they are trying to sterilize.

pfdietz 4y ago
Why would hybrids have to be patented? You are confusing separate things here.
- linuxftw 4y ago
  Hybrids don't have to be patented, but if they're new varieties, they certainly can be. Similarly, new varieties that aren't necessarily hybrids (eg, once were hybrids and now are stable) can also be patented.

a_bonobo 4y ago

There are no plants engineered to not produce plantable seeds. There's a long-standing moratorium on terminator genes that is generally observed. The reason why you have to rebuy your seeds from the companies is because of hybrid vigor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heterosis It's still not 100% understand how this actually happens (heaps models and results exist), but when you cross two reasonably distantly related parents, the offspring F1 will outperform both. However, if you then backcross the offspring again, you'll lose that hybrid vigor, and your F2 behaves like crap again (often the F2 is also all over the shop in the phenotype, which makes harvesting annoying with different flowering times, different sizes etc.) That's the whole business model of the seed companies: keep on remaking F1s, sell them. There's nothing nefarious or GM about this, it goes back to the 50s and 60s with Norman Borlaug making hybrid F1s in wheat triggering the green revolution.

bitshiftfaced 4y ago
I never knew about this. That's interesting. So then hybrid vigor is the reason farmers don't grow their own seeds, which contradicts the article. Obviously the OSS people would know this, so then the purpose must be more about encouraging plant diversity and allowing more companies to sell these varieties to farmers.
- pfdietz 4y ago
  Hybrid vigor is also why eugenic nightmares are misconstructed. If some nefarious dictator wanted genetic supersoldiers, he'd breed them by hybridizing sickly inbred strains, and then prohibiting the supersoldiers from themselves reproducing.
  - trallnag 4y ago
    can you explain further or maybe link to something? Eugenics can also mean eradicating certain unwanted elements like illnesses or black skin.
    - 4y ago

traverseda 4y ago

Lots of "normal" plants don't produce usable seeds. Basically every apple you've ever had will produce a crab apple tree when planted, if you want to copy that tree you need to take a cutting and propogate that. I suspect that these engineered plants don't have some specific "don't produce seeds" gene added in, they're just hybrids like a liger or a mule.

pard68 4y ago
Not quite how apples work and planting an apple seed won't make a "crab apple" -- that is a distinct species of tree. Getting a crab apple from a seed from a store bought apple fruit is the same as planting corn and getting rye.
kwhitefoot 4y ago
They are hybrids but unlike mules they are generally fertile whereas mules are frequently infertile. But the second generation produces a range of types with varying growth rates, ripening times, yields, etc.; so it is not really useful to propagate them.

bluGill 4y ago

As others pointed out, such plants don't exist. Plants that don't produce plantable seeds have a big advantage: some seed is spilled every harvest. Farmers rotate crops, if you have corn gorwing in your soybean field that is one of the worst weeds you can have. Not only does the corn take nutrients you intend for your soybeans, it is also providing a host for any corn disease in your field that you are hoping die off now that it doesn't have corn to live in.