5 ms·

Anatomy of a Book Cancellation

53 points by jseliger 4y ago

nhchris 4y ago
For some events, research is only allowed to conclude that they were as bad as we thought, or that they were even worse. Anything else is professional suicide. Like a control circuit only able to correct the system in one direction, it will drift in that direction without limit. It turns history first to myth, then to fairy tale.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- AllegedAlec 4y ago
  See also https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the-brain/ https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the...
  - slim 4y ago
    We tightly strapped an infant to a traditional plastic “circumstraint” using Velcro restraints. We also completely immobilized the infant’s head using standard surgical tape. The entire apparatus was then introduced into the MRI chamber. Since no metal objects could be used because of the high magnetic fields, the doctor who performed the surgery used a plastic bell with a sterilized obsidian bade to cut the foreskin. No anesthetic was used. what is this ? I can't parse. Is it an april fool or something ?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- rxhernandez 4y ago
  I think this is predicated on the ends justifying the means since the author seems to acknowledge that there are some deeply problematic things with colonialism while simultaneously acknowledging that they should have pride in the results. What should be of no surprise to anyone, anywhere, is that people are deeply unmotivated to ever see the ends in a positive light if they were on the other end of that barrel full of evil means. Moreover, to say that someone should have pride in colonialism should translate to a tacit acknowledgement that colonialism was a great thing (if it's not great, why have pride in it at all?). And if it's a great thing why shouldn't we do it again? I mean, does anyone genuinely think any value the Nazis produced would make up for the enormity of their evil? Should Germans have pride in Nazis because they helped pioneer rocketry?
  - nhchris 4y ago
    It has nothing to do with ends vs. means, and I have no idea where you got that from. It is about reaching truth. To give a simple example, the question is "Did the Umayyad caliphate bring new irrigation techniques to Spain? What was the overall balance between harm and benefit they brought to Spain's population?", and not "Do the new irrigation techniques justify their colonization of Spain?" Somehow, we are able to dispassionately examine the harms and benefits when it comes to Islamic-ruled Spain. So why should we look at Britain's empire any differently?
    - rxhernandez 4y ago
      How is talking about ends justifying means remotely a reach? Direct quote: "Then, in late November 2017, I published a column in The Times of London, in which I referred approvingly to Bruce Gilley’s controversial article ,'The Case for Colonialism,' and argued that we Britons have reason to feel pride as well as shame about our imperial past" Neglecting what should be an obvious comment on Britons having pride in the results of colonialism (re: ends) despite the shame behind their ancestors' actions (re: means), the problem has never been related to how much evil benefits anyone. It's always been about how unnecessary evil is and the fact that there were always better options than evil.
      - nhchris 4y ago
        "Pride as well as shame" is not "ends as well as means", it is "it caused good as well as bad".
        rxhernandez 4y ago
        Imagine someone saying that Nazis caused good as well as bad and not seeing how that necessarily translates to ends justifying means
        nhchris 4y ago
        Imagine someone saying the objective truth, regardless of what tortured implications someone wrings from it. For example, the Wikipedia article on a different colonial empire, the Umayyad caliphate, is positively aglow with all the good it did (in addition to enslaving some of its subjects): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
- pjc50 4y ago
  Rhodes was bad, though. https://libertywritersafrica.com/african-history/how-cecil-rhodes-killed-millions-of-southern-africans-for-diamonds-and-lands/ https://libertywritersafrica.com/african-history/how-cecil-r... (Interestingly that article starts with mention of the massacre of Namibians by Germans. I don't think anyone is being "cancelled" over that, possibly because everyone involved was "cancelled" a lot harder in the middle of the 20th century for some reason)
Overtonwindow 4y ago
Cancel culture is modern day book burning.
- a3w 4y ago
  > edit: chatGPT version of my posting: While I acknowledge that the spread of hateful messages online can lead to tragic consequences, such as suicide, it is difficult to determine which political side causes more harm through speech. The impact of speech on individuals varies greatly, and not all individuals are equally resilient to criticism. In my opinion, businesses with a monopoly must serve all customers regardless of their beliefs or opinions. However, businesses without a monopoly are free to work with whomever they please, as long as they don't discriminate based on factors like ethnicity or gender. The rejection of a message or idea is not the same as denying service, as long as there are still other competitors who are willing to work with the individual in question. In conclusion, I do not believe in the existence of "cancel culture." I welcome further discussion and arguments that may change my mind. > Original, confusing message by me: After book burning, we burned people. Do we cancel people into their graves next? Yes, hateful messages get humans to commit suicide. But I don't know if (politically right?) not canceled messages vs. a (leftist?) cancel culture cause more self-harm. That said, I believe every business that holds a monopoly must serve anyone. Any other business may deal with whomever they want and reject on any grounds, unless these are explicitly forbidden. Ethnicity or gender may fit as non-reasons for denying service. Not liking a message and not wanting to share it is different, if there are still competitors that will offer to work with you. TL;DR IMHO there is no such thing as cancel culture. Change my mind.
  - nhchris 4y ago
    > Do we cancel people into their graves next? Yes. And out of them, too: A Confederate General's Remains Are Being Moved Out Of Memphis - https://www.npr.org/2021/06/19/1008371491/confederate-general-remains-memphis-moved https://www.npr.org/2021/06/19/1008371491/confederate-genera...
  - simple-thoughts 4y ago
    Your comment is incoherent but it appears your argument is that right wing texts cause people to self harm, so self harm caused by leftist deplatforming is not wrong. Perhaps you should take a moment to read the published article again. This is not the case of targeted harassment with the intent or even ability to cause self harm. It is a case of an academic, who’s job is to produce works that provide an accurate understanding of history so that better decisions can be made by leaders, having a book canceled due to political pressure from a privileged vocal elite. The facts of history do not conform to ideology, since history is an analysis of the past based on remnants left by it in the present. The second part of your argument seems to be a neoliberal one that people should be free to do business with whomever they please. Of course the flaw with neoliberalism is it’s constant infiltration by political elements. As soon as a business decision is driven by political considerations rather than profit, the laws of neoliberal economics break down. Profit matters less than political salience, since political salience generates access to grant funding from state and non state actors.
vkou 4y ago
I will happily point out that pride in the former empire is exactly what's driving Russian aggression in the Ukraine at this moment.
- fromseashore 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - gattilorenz 4y ago
    It’s not “first and foremost”: you literally have nothing else to add to the discussion, besides spitting out russian propaganda.
    - fromseashore 4y ago
      [flagged]
- drekipus 4y ago
  Was the USSR an "empire" in the imperial sense (genuine question) ? I had thought the revolution was to destroy all that, remove the czar, bring in autocratic states, etc. I feel like there is a distinction here but I can't easily point to it. But they were very anti-empire afaik
  - brazzy 4y ago
    An empire is not defined by its internal form of government, but by having a poweful core state that keeps other territories (provinces, colonies, client states) in permanent subservience.
    - pbhjpbhj 4y ago
      Surely not, an empire has an emperor/empress (an Imperator of some sort).
defrost 4y ago
For those not reading the article, this is a tale of failed 'Cancellation' (if it can indeed be called as such). The “Ethics and Empire” project continues and grows, and the book “Colonialism: A Moral Reckoning” was published despite the initial publisher exercising their option to withdraw and not publish. Comments such as "research is only allowed to conclude .. " etc. are not supported here, just adages about twists and turns in the road that none of us anticipate.
- nhchris 4y ago
  > Comments such as "research is only allowed to conclude .. " etc. are not supported here The ability of people to refuse to understand that which they don't want to never ceases to amaze me. His colleagues abandoned him, and his institution disavowed his work. That on rare occasion academics are famous, foolish, and stubborn enough to get their work out despite such disincentives does not mean such threats are not effective for the vast majority. They hear the message loud and clear: If you go against the zeitgeist, you better be ready to weather the storm that'll bring upon you.
  - defrost 4y ago
    > If you go against the zeitgeist, you better be ready to weather the storm that'll bring upon you. Sure, Leopold Kronecker shat on Cantor from a great height .. welcome to the entire history of acedemia. In this case things came good a lot faster than they did for Cantor. Happily, I was able to repair it. Four fresh historians—including one dissenter from the Centre for Global History—stepped up, three of them, as it happens, wearing slightly darker-than-pink skins. And since 2019, the three annual conferences have attracted more than 40 historians from Oxbridge and elsewhere in Britain, and from California to the Netherlands. “Ethics and Empire” will complete its work in the summer of 2023. So, that story has a happy ending: The attempted cancellation failed, albeit not for want of concerted trying. ( oh, and the "cancelled" book was published on the second attempt with another publisher )
CiaranMcNulty 4y ago
It's sort of extraordinary that the conclusion of the piece is that the book was published and he was paid in full Poor guy
- matt_daemon 4y ago
  Right... hard to take this guy's diatribe seriously.
- rippercushions 4y ago
  It was successfully cancelled at one publisher, he was just lucky/famous enough to find another. How many people don't get a second chance?
  - arrrg 4y ago
    Do you have a right to be published? Free association is also an important liberal right.
    - anonymousiam 4y ago
      RTFA. He had a contract, which the publisher asked him to cancel. He wanted a transparent explanation for the reasoning behind the cancellation, and never got one. The correspondence was well considered and polite, but the obvious conclusion is that the publisher caved to the woke mob, and didn't want to admit it.
      - arrrg 4y ago
        What does caving to the woke mob even mean? This is just such a weird perspective.
  - defrost 4y ago
    > How many people don't get a second chance? The vast majority of people attempting to get published during the "Golden Age of Science Fiction" for starters. Even reading the autobiographical writings of those that became big names you'll find a seemingly endless runway of rejection before liftoff, cancelled acceptances, demands for rewrites, multiple publisher approaches, etc. One publisher getting cold feet isn't the end of the world, ask any writer that's made it.
amriksohata 4y ago
Recently Saurav dutt had his book cancelled on Amazon as he spoke about Islamism
nickreese 4y ago
Read the article and read the comments section. For HN the current debate (28 comments) really reflects how charged this topic is. Cancellation of ideas is a topic worth discussing. If we can't discuss it here, a much more rational place than other venues, where can this be meaningfully discussed?
- in_the_fritz 4y ago
  4chan.
prof-dr-ir 4y ago
It is interesting to compare this against a letter in the Guardian [1] by one of the chief critics of the project. They are both so keen to insist on rationality! A quote from the original post: "They [his critics] could engage rationally, even if forcefully." A quote from [1]: "That debate [on empire] should be equitable, rational and based on all the available evidence." So I think the debate might be a bit more nuanced than can be gleaned from blog posts and columns? I guess I would be wary of taking a side here without significantly more background reading. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/03/history-empire-pride-guilt-truth-oxford-nigel-biggar https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/03/histor...

53 points by jseliger 4y ago

For some events, research is only allowed to conclude that they were as bad as we thought, or that they were even worse. Anything else is professional suicide. Like a control circuit only able to correct the system in one direction, it will drift in that direction without limit. It turns history first to myth, then to fairy tale.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
AllegedAlec 4y ago
See also https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the-brain/ https://circumcision.org/circumcision-permanently-alters-the...
- slim 4y ago
  We tightly strapped an infant to a traditional plastic “circumstraint” using Velcro restraints. We also completely immobilized the infant’s head using standard surgical tape. The entire apparatus was then introduced into the MRI chamber. Since no metal objects could be used because of the high magnetic fields, the doctor who performed the surgery used a plastic bell with a sterilized obsidian bade to cut the foreskin. No anesthetic was used. what is this ? I can't parse. Is it an april fool or something ?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
rxhernandez 4y ago
I think this is predicated on the ends justifying the means since the author seems to acknowledge that there are some deeply problematic things with colonialism while simultaneously acknowledging that they should have pride in the results. What should be of no surprise to anyone, anywhere, is that people are deeply unmotivated to ever see the ends in a positive light if they were on the other end of that barrel full of evil means. Moreover, to say that someone should have pride in colonialism should translate to a tacit acknowledgement that colonialism was a great thing (if it's not great, why have pride in it at all?). And if it's a great thing why shouldn't we do it again? I mean, does anyone genuinely think any value the Nazis produced would make up for the enormity of their evil? Should Germans have pride in Nazis because they helped pioneer rocketry?
- nhchris 4y ago
  It has nothing to do with ends vs. means, and I have no idea where you got that from. It is about reaching truth. To give a simple example, the question is "Did the Umayyad caliphate bring new irrigation techniques to Spain? What was the overall balance between harm and benefit they brought to Spain's population?", and not "Do the new irrigation techniques justify their colonization of Spain?" Somehow, we are able to dispassionately examine the harms and benefits when it comes to Islamic-ruled Spain. So why should we look at Britain's empire any differently?
  - rxhernandez 4y ago
    How is talking about ends justifying means remotely a reach? Direct quote: "Then, in late November 2017, I published a column in The Times of London, in which I referred approvingly to Bruce Gilley’s controversial article ,'The Case for Colonialism,' and argued that we Britons have reason to feel pride as well as shame about our imperial past" Neglecting what should be an obvious comment on Britons having pride in the results of colonialism (re: ends) despite the shame behind their ancestors' actions (re: means), the problem has never been related to how much evil benefits anyone. It's always been about how unnecessary evil is and the fact that there were always better options than evil.
    - nhchris 4y ago
      "Pride as well as shame" is not "ends as well as means", it is "it caused good as well as bad".
      - rxhernandez 4y ago
        Imagine someone saying that Nazis caused good as well as bad and not seeing how that necessarily translates to ends justifying means
        nhchris 4y ago
        Imagine someone saying the objective truth, regardless of what tortured implications someone wrings from it. For example, the Wikipedia article on a different colonial empire, the Umayyad caliphate, is positively aglow with all the good it did (in addition to enslaving some of its subjects): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus
pjc50 4y ago
Rhodes was bad, though. https://libertywritersafrica.com/african-history/how-cecil-rhodes-killed-millions-of-southern-africans-for-diamonds-and-lands/ https://libertywritersafrica.com/african-history/how-cecil-r... (Interestingly that article starts with mention of the massacre of Namibians by Germans. I don't think anyone is being "cancelled" over that, possibly because everyone involved was "cancelled" a lot harder in the middle of the 20th century for some reason)

Overtonwindow 4y ago

Cancel culture is modern day book burning.

a3w 4y ago
> edit: chatGPT version of my posting: While I acknowledge that the spread of hateful messages online can lead to tragic consequences, such as suicide, it is difficult to determine which political side causes more harm through speech. The impact of speech on individuals varies greatly, and not all individuals are equally resilient to criticism. In my opinion, businesses with a monopoly must serve all customers regardless of their beliefs or opinions. However, businesses without a monopoly are free to work with whomever they please, as long as they don't discriminate based on factors like ethnicity or gender. The rejection of a message or idea is not the same as denying service, as long as there are still other competitors who are willing to work with the individual in question. In conclusion, I do not believe in the existence of "cancel culture." I welcome further discussion and arguments that may change my mind. > Original, confusing message by me: After book burning, we burned people. Do we cancel people into their graves next? Yes, hateful messages get humans to commit suicide. But I don't know if (politically right?) not canceled messages vs. a (leftist?) cancel culture cause more self-harm. That said, I believe every business that holds a monopoly must serve anyone. Any other business may deal with whomever they want and reject on any grounds, unless these are explicitly forbidden. Ethnicity or gender may fit as non-reasons for denying service. Not liking a message and not wanting to share it is different, if there are still competitors that will offer to work with you. TL;DR IMHO there is no such thing as cancel culture. Change my mind.
- nhchris 4y ago
  > Do we cancel people into their graves next? Yes. And out of them, too: A Confederate General's Remains Are Being Moved Out Of Memphis - https://www.npr.org/2021/06/19/1008371491/confederate-general-remains-memphis-moved https://www.npr.org/2021/06/19/1008371491/confederate-genera...
- simple-thoughts 4y ago
  Your comment is incoherent but it appears your argument is that right wing texts cause people to self harm, so self harm caused by leftist deplatforming is not wrong. Perhaps you should take a moment to read the published article again. This is not the case of targeted harassment with the intent or even ability to cause self harm. It is a case of an academic, who’s job is to produce works that provide an accurate understanding of history so that better decisions can be made by leaders, having a book canceled due to political pressure from a privileged vocal elite. The facts of history do not conform to ideology, since history is an analysis of the past based on remnants left by it in the present. The second part of your argument seems to be a neoliberal one that people should be free to do business with whomever they please. Of course the flaw with neoliberalism is it’s constant infiltration by political elements. As soon as a business decision is driven by political considerations rather than profit, the laws of neoliberal economics break down. Profit matters less than political salience, since political salience generates access to grant funding from state and non state actors.

vkou 4y ago

I will happily point out that pride in the former empire is exactly what's driving Russian aggression in the Ukraine at this moment.

fromseashore 4y ago
[flagged]
- gattilorenz 4y ago
  It’s not “first and foremost”: you literally have nothing else to add to the discussion, besides spitting out russian propaganda.
  - fromseashore 4y ago
    [flagged]
drekipus 4y ago
Was the USSR an "empire" in the imperial sense (genuine question) ? I had thought the revolution was to destroy all that, remove the czar, bring in autocratic states, etc. I feel like there is a distinction here but I can't easily point to it. But they were very anti-empire afaik
- brazzy 4y ago
  An empire is not defined by its internal form of government, but by having a poweful core state that keeps other territories (provinces, colonies, client states) in permanent subservience.
  - pbhjpbhj 4y ago
    Surely not, an empire has an emperor/empress (an Imperator of some sort).

defrost 4y ago

For those not reading the article, this is a tale of failed 'Cancellation' (if it can indeed be called as such). The “Ethics and Empire” project continues and grows, and the book “Colonialism: A Moral Reckoning” was published despite the initial publisher exercising their option to withdraw and not publish. Comments such as "research is only allowed to conclude .. " etc. are not supported here, just adages about twists and turns in the road that none of us anticipate.

nhchris 4y ago
> Comments such as "research is only allowed to conclude .. " etc. are not supported here The ability of people to refuse to understand that which they don't want to never ceases to amaze me. His colleagues abandoned him, and his institution disavowed his work. That on rare occasion academics are famous, foolish, and stubborn enough to get their work out despite such disincentives does not mean such threats are not effective for the vast majority. They hear the message loud and clear: If you go against the zeitgeist, you better be ready to weather the storm that'll bring upon you.
- defrost 4y ago
  > If you go against the zeitgeist, you better be ready to weather the storm that'll bring upon you. Sure, Leopold Kronecker shat on Cantor from a great height .. welcome to the entire history of acedemia. In this case things came good a lot faster than they did for Cantor. Happily, I was able to repair it. Four fresh historians—including one dissenter from the Centre for Global History—stepped up, three of them, as it happens, wearing slightly darker-than-pink skins. And since 2019, the three annual conferences have attracted more than 40 historians from Oxbridge and elsewhere in Britain, and from California to the Netherlands. “Ethics and Empire” will complete its work in the summer of 2023. So, that story has a happy ending: The attempted cancellation failed, albeit not for want of concerted trying. ( oh, and the "cancelled" book was published on the second attempt with another publisher )

CiaranMcNulty 4y ago

It's sort of extraordinary that the conclusion of the piece is that the book was published and he was paid in full Poor guy

matt_daemon 4y ago
Right... hard to take this guy's diatribe seriously.
rippercushions 4y ago
It was successfully cancelled at one publisher, he was just lucky/famous enough to find another. How many people don't get a second chance?
- arrrg 4y ago
  Do you have a right to be published? Free association is also an important liberal right.
  - anonymousiam 4y ago
    RTFA. He had a contract, which the publisher asked him to cancel. He wanted a transparent explanation for the reasoning behind the cancellation, and never got one. The correspondence was well considered and polite, but the obvious conclusion is that the publisher caved to the woke mob, and didn't want to admit it.
    - arrrg 4y ago
      What does caving to the woke mob even mean? This is just such a weird perspective.
- defrost 4y ago
  > How many people don't get a second chance? The vast majority of people attempting to get published during the "Golden Age of Science Fiction" for starters. Even reading the autobiographical writings of those that became big names you'll find a seemingly endless runway of rejection before liftoff, cancelled acceptances, demands for rewrites, multiple publisher approaches, etc. One publisher getting cold feet isn't the end of the world, ask any writer that's made it.

amriksohata 4y ago

Recently Saurav dutt had his book cancelled on Amazon as he spoke about Islamism

nickreese 4y ago

Read the article and read the comments section. For HN the current debate (28 comments) really reflects how charged this topic is. Cancellation of ideas is a topic worth discussing. If we can't discuss it here, a much more rational place than other venues, where can this be meaningfully discussed?

in_the_fritz 4y ago
4chan.

prof-dr-ir 4y ago

It is interesting to compare this against a letter in the Guardian [1] by one of the chief critics of the project. They are both so keen to insist on rationality! A quote from the original post: "They [his critics] could engage rationally, even if forcefully." A quote from [1]: "That debate [on empire] should be equitable, rational and based on all the available evidence." So I think the debate might be a bit more nuanced than can be gleaned from blog posts and columns? I guess I would be wary of taking a side here without significantly more background reading. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/03/history-empire-pride-guilt-truth-oxford-nigel-biggar https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/03/histor...