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Best to look at commercial fast chargers as a convenience service. You pay more for a 1/2 liter Coca-Cola at the gas station than you would for a two-liter bott

Best to look at commercial fast chargers as a convenience service. You pay more for a 1/2 liter Coca-Cola at the gas station than you would for a two-liter bottle at the grocery store. You pay extra for the convenience of it being right there as you get gas and for it being pre-chilled. For most people's daily use, charging at home will fulfill their needs. If you take a long trip, then you will end up paying convenience rates. But unless you frequently take long trips, it's a small share of the annual cost of using the vehicle. And if you do take frequent long trips, perhaps an EV isn't the best choice for you at this time.

NegativeK 4y ago
This also means that EVs aren't ready for people who can't charge at home, like most apartment renters or people in rental homes who drive too much for whatever outlet is available in their garage.
- mellosouls 4y ago
  In the UK it also includes the many, many people living on terraced streets with no off-road parking.
  - borissk 4y ago
    People on therraced streets just park in front of their house and run a cable to charge the car.
    - mellosouls 4y ago
      Unsafe for obvious reasons, not remotely a practical solution. As others have pointed out there are real infrastructure problems, and not really difficult in cases like the above to sort technically, but nobody seems to be doing it practically, it's clearly in the power of the government and suppliers to do en masse if the intent is to encourage wide scale adoption.
- seanmcdirmid 4y ago
  At least in Europe if they have access to any outlet at all, they can usually get much better charging than we do in the states (240V vs 120V).
  - Aloha 4y ago
    Do they? I dont think every outlet in Europe can do the 20a to 30a at 240v that you'd expect for a car charger - just like most outlets here are rated for 15a at 120, most outlets in the UK are rated for 13a at 240 (and thats on a ring circuit fused for 40a, which may be shared with many other outlets) - its a difference of about 1320w (in Germany 10a outlets are common, which means even less, a mere 600w difference) in actual power delivery. Whereas a dedicated home charging ciruit in states will be 4800-7200w. while yes, there is a difference, you dont know how many other devices that power line will pass, and it wont do in common space living situations where often exterior outlets are.. A) Shared and B) on the buildings meter, rather than the individuals.
    - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
      It often isn't as good as an L2 charger, but it is usually better than an American L1 charger. Incidentally, I already see this effect in using an electric water kettle: in the USA they are really slow, but in Europe and Asia, they are much faster (because 230-240V).
      - Aloha 4y ago
        L1.25 perhaps ;-) Point taken, and conceded in my original comment - the larger issues are, to suddenly add a bunch of high amperage loads at everyones parking space requires additional infrastructure - infrastructure we probably dont already have.
        seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        I've never seen power outlets in shared parking in Europe, so I didn't really consider that case. I guess I'm just considering Europeans in SFHs, where they really don't need to worry about adding L2 wiring for most use cases.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Yes, continue to build out overnight grid access for the segment of the population that does not currently have it. That is a good idea. Are you suggesting otherwise that we all continue to drive gasoline cars until that happens, then it'll be okay to switch to electric?
  - tehbeard 4y ago
    You seem to be taking an awfully defensive stance as if comment was from someone anti-EV, when in reality anyone reading it would see it merely points out issues with the current available infrastructure. I haven't heard much hullabaloo made about kerbside EV charging or such for apartment complexes or terraced housing etc in the UK. Is this something happening quietly, or not being invested in much like rural broadband wasnt?
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      Normally the anti-EV crowd does tend to just drop in little nuggets to prove that we don't have a perfect world for EVs yet, without furthering the discussion of how we get to that point. Because they don't want to get there to begin with, burning gasoline is their preferred permanent solution. I do see a fair amount of quiet upgrading going on, at least in my area (in the US, not in UK, so I cannot speak to that). Having an EV charger is becoming a box you want to have checked on your rental property description, whether apartment or house. That doesn't mean we have a great solution in mind for curbside parking, mind you, but in most of the US that's a much less critical issue than apartment complexes which do have private parking lots.
      - notacoward 4y ago
        The one question the "EVs still pollute" crowd can never answer is what ICEV owners can do that's equivalent to installing your own solar (or soon wind) to harvest your own clean energy for a vehicle. Same to a certain extent with heat pumps vs. oil/gas heating for the home. They act like green technologies are as good and cheap as they can ever be, and do absolutely nothing to reduce emissions, when in fact progress is being made rapidly on both fronts. It's this one-sided view that makes them seem like allies of Big Oil, even if they don't mean to be.
monkeynotes 4y ago
Rubbish, fast charging is essential to long distance drives else now you are paying in time.
- hoseja 4y ago
  How many people need to make regular trips beyond EV range though?
  - beisner 4y ago
    In the US, many people drive 5+hr long-distance trips a few times a year at least (visit relatives, vacation, etc). So the idea of either getting fleeced or stranded a few times a year is unappealing.
    - Philip-J-Fry 4y ago
      So, probably less than <1% of your miles travelled then. And throughout the rest of your travels you're paying significantly less per mile than you would in an ICE car. Even if you use super chargers on your long distance trips then in the grand scheme of things it's still cheaper.
  - monkeynotes 4y ago
    My closest big city is 4 hrs drive away. I know lots of people in the UK who drive to places in France for vacation. I bet mainland Europeans do the same. And then there is just range anxiety which is always gonna be there. I've driven from Scotland to East Anglia and it took long enough with the awful traffic, put a slow charge into that mix and it would have been a multi-day trip. I just don't get why people are so ready to blinker themselves to some of this stuff. EVs are still in early adopter stage, IMO, but we are fast tracking whole nations into forcing them to be the only option. And they are just not fit for some people's usecases.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
      > we are fast tracking whole nations into forcing them to be the only option Where? Tell me one place that you know of in the foreseeable future that will prevent the use of ICE vehicles?
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
A lot of fast charging networks offer memberships that make frequent usage more economical. Though I'm not sure how that works for commercial users (including Uber drivers with Teslas).
mellosouls 4y ago
For most people's daily use, charging at home will fulfill their needs Right, so not fit for the massive constituency with no access to home charging then (in addition to their many other problems as a realistic transport option for many). As much as I like the idea of electric cars, the complacency of those championing them in the light of the lack of suitability for a huge part of the population is really frustrating.
- jackmott42 4y ago
  Many apartments already have slow chargers installed, many more are working on it. The world rapidly built a massive network of gas stations to make gas cars work, requiring massive underground tanks full of toxic chemicals and pumps and machines to pump them into cars. For EVs we need to run some wire, its way simpler, its already happening, rapidly. It doesn't even put more net load on the grid, since it takes the same amount of electricity to refine a tank of gas, as to fill a "tank" of an EV.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  Is anybody advocating for leaving them out? Most EV enthusiasts that I know are all for extending overnight grid access to people who don't currently have it (which is a big number of people, to be sure, but still less than half). It's an important problem to solve, the solution is not to give up on efficient cars and stick with gasoline.
  - mellosouls 4y ago
    Is anybody advocating for leaving them out? Reread the quote I replied to, and what I actually said, please.
  - ArtB 4y ago
    People need efficient transport not efficient cars. Efficient cars are merely less bad, rather than good. We need more public transit and less urban sprawl so that we can reuse infrastructure efficiently.
    - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
jeroenhd 4y ago
I can't charge at home. I don't have a garage or driveway and the municipality forbids extension cords spanning across the pavement. If home charging is a necessity to use an already twice as expensive electric car, I can't be an EV customer realistically.
- radicalbyte 4y ago
  That is one of the reasons I moved house.
- borissk 4y ago
  Municipalities will change their rules when enough people request it. Another option is to charge at the office and/or at the free chargers at the supermarket car parks.

NegativeK 4y ago

This also means that EVs aren't ready for people who can't charge at home, like most apartment renters or people in rental homes who drive too much for whatever outlet is available in their garage.

mellosouls 4y ago
In the UK it also includes the many, many people living on terraced streets with no off-road parking.
- borissk 4y ago
  People on therraced streets just park in front of their house and run a cable to charge the car.
  - mellosouls 4y ago
    Unsafe for obvious reasons, not remotely a practical solution. As others have pointed out there are real infrastructure problems, and not really difficult in cases like the above to sort technically, but nobody seems to be doing it practically, it's clearly in the power of the government and suppliers to do en masse if the intent is to encourage wide scale adoption.
seanmcdirmid 4y ago
At least in Europe if they have access to any outlet at all, they can usually get much better charging than we do in the states (240V vs 120V).
- Aloha 4y ago
  Do they? I dont think every outlet in Europe can do the 20a to 30a at 240v that you'd expect for a car charger - just like most outlets here are rated for 15a at 120, most outlets in the UK are rated for 13a at 240 (and thats on a ring circuit fused for 40a, which may be shared with many other outlets) - its a difference of about 1320w (in Germany 10a outlets are common, which means even less, a mere 600w difference) in actual power delivery. Whereas a dedicated home charging ciruit in states will be 4800-7200w. while yes, there is a difference, you dont know how many other devices that power line will pass, and it wont do in common space living situations where often exterior outlets are.. A) Shared and B) on the buildings meter, rather than the individuals.
  - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
    It often isn't as good as an L2 charger, but it is usually better than an American L1 charger. Incidentally, I already see this effect in using an electric water kettle: in the USA they are really slow, but in Europe and Asia, they are much faster (because 230-240V).
    - Aloha 4y ago
      L1.25 perhaps ;-) Point taken, and conceded in my original comment - the larger issues are, to suddenly add a bunch of high amperage loads at everyones parking space requires additional infrastructure - infrastructure we probably dont already have.
      - seanmcdirmid 4y ago
        I've never seen power outlets in shared parking in Europe, so I didn't really consider that case. I guess I'm just considering Europeans in SFHs, where they really don't need to worry about adding L2 wiring for most use cases.
rootusrootus 4y ago
Yes, continue to build out overnight grid access for the segment of the population that does not currently have it. That is a good idea. Are you suggesting otherwise that we all continue to drive gasoline cars until that happens, then it'll be okay to switch to electric?
- tehbeard 4y ago
  You seem to be taking an awfully defensive stance as if comment was from someone anti-EV, when in reality anyone reading it would see it merely points out issues with the current available infrastructure. I haven't heard much hullabaloo made about kerbside EV charging or such for apartment complexes or terraced housing etc in the UK. Is this something happening quietly, or not being invested in much like rural broadband wasnt?
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    Normally the anti-EV crowd does tend to just drop in little nuggets to prove that we don't have a perfect world for EVs yet, without furthering the discussion of how we get to that point. Because they don't want to get there to begin with, burning gasoline is their preferred permanent solution. I do see a fair amount of quiet upgrading going on, at least in my area (in the US, not in UK, so I cannot speak to that). Having an EV charger is becoming a box you want to have checked on your rental property description, whether apartment or house. That doesn't mean we have a great solution in mind for curbside parking, mind you, but in most of the US that's a much less critical issue than apartment complexes which do have private parking lots.
    - notacoward 4y ago
      The one question the "EVs still pollute" crowd can never answer is what ICEV owners can do that's equivalent to installing your own solar (or soon wind) to harvest your own clean energy for a vehicle. Same to a certain extent with heat pumps vs. oil/gas heating for the home. They act like green technologies are as good and cheap as they can ever be, and do absolutely nothing to reduce emissions, when in fact progress is being made rapidly on both fronts. It's this one-sided view that makes them seem like allies of Big Oil, even if they don't mean to be.

monkeynotes 4y ago

Rubbish, fast charging is essential to long distance drives else now you are paying in time.

hoseja 4y ago
How many people need to make regular trips beyond EV range though?
- beisner 4y ago
  In the US, many people drive 5+hr long-distance trips a few times a year at least (visit relatives, vacation, etc). So the idea of either getting fleeced or stranded a few times a year is unappealing.
  - Philip-J-Fry 4y ago
    So, probably less than <1% of your miles travelled then. And throughout the rest of your travels you're paying significantly less per mile than you would in an ICE car. Even if you use super chargers on your long distance trips then in the grand scheme of things it's still cheaper.
- monkeynotes 4y ago
  My closest big city is 4 hrs drive away. I know lots of people in the UK who drive to places in France for vacation. I bet mainland Europeans do the same. And then there is just range anxiety which is always gonna be there. I've driven from Scotland to East Anglia and it took long enough with the awful traffic, put a slow charge into that mix and it would have been a multi-day trip. I just don't get why people are so ready to blinker themselves to some of this stuff. EVs are still in early adopter stage, IMO, but we are fast tracking whole nations into forcing them to be the only option. And they are just not fit for some people's usecases.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    > we are fast tracking whole nations into forcing them to be the only option Where? Tell me one place that you know of in the foreseeable future that will prevent the use of ICE vehicles?

seanmcdirmid 4y ago

A lot of fast charging networks offer memberships that make frequent usage more economical. Though I'm not sure how that works for commercial users (including Uber drivers with Teslas).

mellosouls 4y ago

For most people's daily use, charging at home will fulfill their needs Right, so not fit for the massive constituency with no access to home charging then (in addition to their many other problems as a realistic transport option for many). As much as I like the idea of electric cars, the complacency of those championing them in the light of the lack of suitability for a huge part of the population is really frustrating.

jackmott42 4y ago
Many apartments already have slow chargers installed, many more are working on it. The world rapidly built a massive network of gas stations to make gas cars work, requiring massive underground tanks full of toxic chemicals and pumps and machines to pump them into cars. For EVs we need to run some wire, its way simpler, its already happening, rapidly. It doesn't even put more net load on the grid, since it takes the same amount of electricity to refine a tank of gas, as to fill a "tank" of an EV.
rootusrootus 4y ago
Is anybody advocating for leaving them out? Most EV enthusiasts that I know are all for extending overnight grid access to people who don't currently have it (which is a big number of people, to be sure, but still less than half). It's an important problem to solve, the solution is not to give up on efficient cars and stick with gasoline.
- mellosouls 4y ago
  Is anybody advocating for leaving them out? Reread the quote I replied to, and what I actually said, please.
- ArtB 4y ago
  People need efficient transport not efficient cars. Efficient cars are merely less bad, rather than good. We need more public transit and less urban sprawl so that we can reuse infrastructure efficiently.
  - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

jeroenhd 4y ago

I can't charge at home. I don't have a garage or driveway and the municipality forbids extension cords spanning across the pavement. If home charging is a necessity to use an already twice as expensive electric car, I can't be an EV customer realistically.

radicalbyte 4y ago
That is one of the reasons I moved house.
borissk 4y ago
Municipalities will change their rules when enough people request it. Another option is to charge at the office and/or at the free chargers at the supermarket car parks.