4 ms·

> Why does Thunderbird look so old UI isn't a fashion show. I'd much rather have a UI that looks older but is comfortable to use than something trendy.

Veen 4y ago
> UI isn't a fashion show. Yes, it is. At least, it is for UI designers.
- squarefoot 4y ago
  Only for UI designers who put aesthetics before usability.
  - toss1 4y ago
    IOW, for most UI designers on current software products. Very few changes I see these days actually improve anything; they are merely change for the sake of providing evidence to justify the UI designers' salaries. If something already works, and we know how to use it, there had better be a damn good reason for changing it, because you are burdening thousands, millions, or even billions of people with yet another entirely unnecessary learning task in our already over-stressed lives. We are far past the time when the new version of X will be seen by orders of magnitude more users than the previous version, so it'll be only the minority that have to relearn, and the majority will enjoy the improved UI (assuming that the new stuff is actually an improvement; BIG assumption). Today, most of it will burden existing users. You want to make the colors prettier, add a dark/night mode, round the corners, highlight things a bit better? Wonderful. Just don't mess with the organization.
    - VyseofArcadia 4y ago
      > Just don't mess with the organization. And don't mess with discoverability and ergonomics. I hate buttons that don't look like buttons, controls littering the title bar so that I can't use it to move the window, etc etc
- oaiey 4y ago
  Also for the users. For my part, I appreciate if stuff looks modern. I understand the whitespace madness complaints, but a software which looks like 1999 is not something I want to work with. There is a degree of modern style needed because Thunderbird does not exist in a vacuum. Windows evolved, macOS evolved, iPhone/Android look different than 1997 Windows .. which Thunderbird looked like the last years.
  - Lammy 4y ago
    For anyone else who likes 1997-Windows-style software and can tolerate shareware, try Becky! Internet Mail: http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    Meanwhile, the only major website my elderly dad, who didn't really start using the Web until something like 2015, can use unassisted with a fair amount of confidence, is Craigslist. I'm skeptical that normal, non-technical users actually benefit from or even prefer all this crap. Someone does, but I'm not convinced it's them.
  - qu4z-2 4y ago
    Next you'll be moving my steering wheel 'cause my neighbour repainted his house.
- pbhjpbhj 4y ago
  Ok, but whilst you wear your clothes out in front of people (a literal fashion show), few people parade their MUA's UI in front of their friends, do they? Like, get check the chrome in my mail program guys...??
iillexial 4y ago
It doesn't look old, it looks overloaded and inconvenient. HN UI looks old, but it's the most convenient UI to use.
- ilyt 4y ago
  I don't love light gray on white just because comment got some downvotes. Finding that you got answer to your comment is also PITA, especially if it is something older than "right now". Old reddit + RES is entirely better in every regard. New reddit is utter garbage tho.
- super256 4y ago
  I'm still on TB68 because Enigmail was *broken after, and I think the UI is convenient except adding new accounts and managing SMTP servers. *I send emails in plaintext, don't tell me about S/MIME.
  - david_draco 4y ago
    Enigmail functionality is now built-in, it's quite nice!
    - super256 4y ago
      When TB78 was introduced, the only supported S/MIME and did not allow inline encryption in plaintext. Has this changed now?
      - david_draco 4y ago
        I use OpenGPG for signing and writing emails, they are plaintext encrypted. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/openpgp-thunderbird-howto-and-faq https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/openpgp-thunderbird-how... https://www.linuxbabe.com/security/encrypt-emails-gpg-thunderbird https://www.linuxbabe.com/security/encrypt-emails-gpg-thunde...
- andix 4y ago
  HN is really bad on touch devices. Call me young and naive, but I mostly read HN on the couch on my tablet.
deckard1 4y ago
I bet you can go on Slashdot and find a thread from a million years ago with people saying they will never switch to this trendy new Thunderbird and that you can pull their pine/elm/mutt from their cold dead hands. I remember a time when running X11 with twm and an xterm was considered too fancy
- zhte415 4y ago
  Minotaur! By the time it was renamed Thunderbird, Netcraft had already confirmed /. was dead. Now get off my lawn!
solson4 4y ago
On the other hand, I gave thunderbird a try after switching to linux and found their UI so bad that it was harming usability. After the app had finished taking up the screen with various controls, settings and the list of messages, there was a tiny window left over to read the email itself, and it seemed like the threading of messages was basically broken. It wasn't that it looked old exactly that bothered me (although it did), but that I was buried in a mountain of jank from the start. I quickly found a new client, but not one I love. If thunderbird does get a UI overhaul I'd give them another chance, and it sounds like they're moving towards a UI that I at the very least would prefer.

Veen 4y ago

> UI isn't a fashion show. Yes, it is. At least, it is for UI designers.

squarefoot 4y ago
Only for UI designers who put aesthetics before usability.
- toss1 4y ago
  IOW, for most UI designers on current software products. Very few changes I see these days actually improve anything; they are merely change for the sake of providing evidence to justify the UI designers' salaries. If something already works, and we know how to use it, there had better be a damn good reason for changing it, because you are burdening thousands, millions, or even billions of people with yet another entirely unnecessary learning task in our already over-stressed lives. We are far past the time when the new version of X will be seen by orders of magnitude more users than the previous version, so it'll be only the minority that have to relearn, and the majority will enjoy the improved UI (assuming that the new stuff is actually an improvement; BIG assumption). Today, most of it will burden existing users. You want to make the colors prettier, add a dark/night mode, round the corners, highlight things a bit better? Wonderful. Just don't mess with the organization.
  - VyseofArcadia 4y ago
    > Just don't mess with the organization. And don't mess with discoverability and ergonomics. I hate buttons that don't look like buttons, controls littering the title bar so that I can't use it to move the window, etc etc
oaiey 4y ago
Also for the users. For my part, I appreciate if stuff looks modern. I understand the whitespace madness complaints, but a software which looks like 1999 is not something I want to work with. There is a degree of modern style needed because Thunderbird does not exist in a vacuum. Windows evolved, macOS evolved, iPhone/Android look different than 1997 Windows .. which Thunderbird looked like the last years.
- Lammy 4y ago
  For anyone else who likes 1997-Windows-style software and can tolerate shareware, try Becky! Internet Mail: http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm http://www.rimarts.co.jp/becky.htm
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  Meanwhile, the only major website my elderly dad, who didn't really start using the Web until something like 2015, can use unassisted with a fair amount of confidence, is Craigslist. I'm skeptical that normal, non-technical users actually benefit from or even prefer all this crap. Someone does, but I'm not convinced it's them.
- qu4z-2 4y ago
  Next you'll be moving my steering wheel 'cause my neighbour repainted his house.
pbhjpbhj 4y ago
Ok, but whilst you wear your clothes out in front of people (a literal fashion show), few people parade their MUA's UI in front of their friends, do they? Like, get check the chrome in my mail program guys...??

iillexial 4y ago

It doesn't look old, it looks overloaded and inconvenient. HN UI looks old, but it's the most convenient UI to use.

ilyt 4y ago
I don't love light gray on white just because comment got some downvotes. Finding that you got answer to your comment is also PITA, especially if it is something older than "right now". Old reddit + RES is entirely better in every regard. New reddit is utter garbage tho.
super256 4y ago
I'm still on TB68 because Enigmail was *broken after, and I think the UI is convenient except adding new accounts and managing SMTP servers. *I send emails in plaintext, don't tell me about S/MIME.
- david_draco 4y ago
  Enigmail functionality is now built-in, it's quite nice!
  - super256 4y ago
    When TB78 was introduced, the only supported S/MIME and did not allow inline encryption in plaintext. Has this changed now?
    - david_draco 4y ago
      I use OpenGPG for signing and writing emails, they are plaintext encrypted. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/openpgp-thunderbird-howto-and-faq https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/openpgp-thunderbird-how... https://www.linuxbabe.com/security/encrypt-emails-gpg-thunderbird https://www.linuxbabe.com/security/encrypt-emails-gpg-thunde...
andix 4y ago
HN is really bad on touch devices. Call me young and naive, but I mostly read HN on the couch on my tablet.

deckard1 4y ago

I bet you can go on Slashdot and find a thread from a million years ago with people saying they will never switch to this trendy new Thunderbird and that you can pull their pine/elm/mutt from their cold dead hands. I remember a time when running X11 with twm and an xterm was considered too fancy

zhte415 4y ago
Minotaur! By the time it was renamed Thunderbird, Netcraft had already confirmed /. was dead. Now get off my lawn!

solson4 4y ago

On the other hand, I gave thunderbird a try after switching to linux and found their UI so bad that it was harming usability. After the app had finished taking up the screen with various controls, settings and the list of messages, there was a tiny window left over to read the email itself, and it seemed like the threading of messages was basically broken. It wasn't that it looked old exactly that bothered me (although it did), but that I was buried in a mountain of jank from the start. I quickly found a new client, but not one I love. If thunderbird does get a UI overhaul I'd give them another chance, and it sounds like they're moving towards a UI that I at the very least would prefer.