4 ms·

This article rests basically everything on one assertion: organisational productivity is equal or better with remote work. It would be prudent to show some evid

by kqr 4y ago

This article rests basically everything on one assertion: organisational productivity is equal or better with remote work. It would be prudent to show some evidence of this when making the subsequent points.

epgui 4y ago
The opposite position could just as well be said to rest on the opposite assumption.
- darkwater 4y ago
  Well, actually the status-quo was already challenged and proved to be "wrong" during 2 years of pandemic. Companies did not collapse because white-collars worked remotely. If your business was positively impacted by the pandemic, they actually thrived and expanded (even too much). So it is safe to assume that, while being different, remote work is not detrimental to a white-collar company, and more specifically to companies based on software.
  - corbulo 4y ago
    Your standard for productivity is 'not collapse'?
    - darkwater 4y ago
      Not collapsing was an hyperbole. Many companies went in real hypergrowth phase, with 100% remote workforce.
- squokko 4y ago
  The burden of proof is much higher on remote work. The entire history of civilization from hunter-gatherers to 2019 was built largely with in-person work. If companies are going to make a permanent change to the way work is done, they will need affirmative proof that the new way works better than the old way, otherwise the much more tried-and-true old way is a much safer bet.
  - ornornor 4y ago
    This is empirical, but I have yet to hear the cause for failure of a company to be “we worked remotely”. Otoh, hearing that operating expenses were too high, no product market fit, tech debt, etc are the usual culprits across remote and in office companies.
  - snemvalts 4y ago
    It's a fallacy to not having any data to back up the incumbent method. "People have drunk alcohol since prehistoric times, so why should people stop now and be sober?". Both sides need to have ample proof.
  - manuelfcreis 4y ago
    Well, in the entire history of civilization most people used to work at home, and not at some other place. Offices aren't part of human nature.
    - andai 4y ago
      For most of human history people worked together in person, as tribes! (I think this is at least part of the reason companies so heavily push the "we are your family" meme, trying to artificially create that original level of collectivism and aligned incentives.)
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - jchw 4y ago
    Why does it need to be better? Here's my PoV: I want it, and frankly rely on it at this point, and employers want to hire me. If someone was really worth less working remotely, it could be factored into salary. Lo and behold though, I accomplish the same, or possibly more now than, as I ever did, and my salary has not plummeted. Quite the opposite. Again, I want to reiterate: if it really made workers worth less, it could be factored into salary. It's not about that. It's about something else that has to do with management and control. Don't get me wrong, I am not doubting for a minute that remote work has challenges, but that's the thing. We had to work those out. Security, compliance, VPNs, beyond corp, whatever... We already HAD to do it. The only reason now to discard that would be sabotage.
- papito 4y ago
  From personal experience, I am MUCH happier getting out of the house a couple of times a week. Lockdowns felt like house arrest, and commuting 5 days a week felt completely unnecessary and exhausting. For many people I know this is the case, so I don't think pure remote or location work are "it".
  - glenjamin 4y ago
    Remote work doesn't force you to stay in your house all week. I work 100% remote with semi-flexible hours and a big part of this is the freedom to leave my house and do things during the day, like meet up with friends, or go exercise while the sun is out in winter etc.
  - Garlef 4y ago
    > From personal experience That's nice for you. From personal experience on the other hand {statement of preference}
  - anon20230209 4y ago
    > For many people I know this is the case, You guys can go to office together, and leave the rest of us out of this?
  - Tade0 4y ago
    > From personal experience, I am MUCH happier getting out of the house a couple of times a week. You can still do that. My friend rented an office a five minute walk from his home - it costs him 3% of his salary.
    - papito 4y ago
      Yes, I live near a large park. I walk/run there every day, but the point is, the routine of doing everything alone (walking, shopping, working, eating) starts grinding on you.
      - antisthenes 4y ago
        > I walk/run there every day, but the point is, the routine of doing everything alone (walking, shopping, working, eating) starts grinding on you. That's a completely different issue from remote vs in-person work. You should learn to be comfortable being alone/by yourself, especially as a man.
gorgoiler 4y ago
It deserves rebuttal but is also quite the flame bait. Surprised to see it on the front page.
jaggederest 4y ago
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=ZQ5x https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=ZQ5x

by kqr 4y ago

epgui 4y ago

The opposite position could just as well be said to rest on the opposite assumption.

darkwater 4y ago
Well, actually the status-quo was already challenged and proved to be "wrong" during 2 years of pandemic. Companies did not collapse because white-collars worked remotely. If your business was positively impacted by the pandemic, they actually thrived and expanded (even too much). So it is safe to assume that, while being different, remote work is not detrimental to a white-collar company, and more specifically to companies based on software.
- corbulo 4y ago
  Your standard for productivity is 'not collapse'?
  - darkwater 4y ago
    Not collapsing was an hyperbole. Many companies went in real hypergrowth phase, with 100% remote workforce.
squokko 4y ago
The burden of proof is much higher on remote work. The entire history of civilization from hunter-gatherers to 2019 was built largely with in-person work. If companies are going to make a permanent change to the way work is done, they will need affirmative proof that the new way works better than the old way, otherwise the much more tried-and-true old way is a much safer bet.
- ornornor 4y ago
  This is empirical, but I have yet to hear the cause for failure of a company to be “we worked remotely”. Otoh, hearing that operating expenses were too high, no product market fit, tech debt, etc are the usual culprits across remote and in office companies.
- snemvalts 4y ago
  It's a fallacy to not having any data to back up the incumbent method. "People have drunk alcohol since prehistoric times, so why should people stop now and be sober?". Both sides need to have ample proof.
- manuelfcreis 4y ago
  Well, in the entire history of civilization most people used to work at home, and not at some other place. Offices aren't part of human nature.
  - andai 4y ago
    For most of human history people worked together in person, as tribes! (I think this is at least part of the reason companies so heavily push the "we are your family" meme, trying to artificially create that original level of collectivism and aligned incentives.)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- jchw 4y ago
  Why does it need to be better? Here's my PoV: I want it, and frankly rely on it at this point, and employers want to hire me. If someone was really worth less working remotely, it could be factored into salary. Lo and behold though, I accomplish the same, or possibly more now than, as I ever did, and my salary has not plummeted. Quite the opposite. Again, I want to reiterate: if it really made workers worth less, it could be factored into salary. It's not about that. It's about something else that has to do with management and control. Don't get me wrong, I am not doubting for a minute that remote work has challenges, but that's the thing. We had to work those out. Security, compliance, VPNs, beyond corp, whatever... We already HAD to do it. The only reason now to discard that would be sabotage.
papito 4y ago
From personal experience, I am MUCH happier getting out of the house a couple of times a week. Lockdowns felt like house arrest, and commuting 5 days a week felt completely unnecessary and exhausting. For many people I know this is the case, so I don't think pure remote or location work are "it".
- glenjamin 4y ago
  Remote work doesn't force you to stay in your house all week. I work 100% remote with semi-flexible hours and a big part of this is the freedom to leave my house and do things during the day, like meet up with friends, or go exercise while the sun is out in winter etc.
- Garlef 4y ago
  > From personal experience That's nice for you. From personal experience on the other hand {statement of preference}
- anon20230209 4y ago
  > For many people I know this is the case, You guys can go to office together, and leave the rest of us out of this?
- Tade0 4y ago
  > From personal experience, I am MUCH happier getting out of the house a couple of times a week. You can still do that. My friend rented an office a five minute walk from his home - it costs him 3% of his salary.
  - papito 4y ago
    Yes, I live near a large park. I walk/run there every day, but the point is, the routine of doing everything alone (walking, shopping, working, eating) starts grinding on you.
    - antisthenes 4y ago
      > I walk/run there every day, but the point is, the routine of doing everything alone (walking, shopping, working, eating) starts grinding on you. That's a completely different issue from remote vs in-person work. You should learn to be comfortable being alone/by yourself, especially as a man.

gorgoiler 4y ago

It deserves rebuttal but is also quite the flame bait. Surprised to see it on the front page.

jaggederest 4y ago

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=ZQ5x https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=ZQ5x