6 ms·

Since it was established that the destruction was caused by explosives, what is your argument? The US is too competent to do such a bad job (17 hours apart and

by oezi 4y ago

Since it was established that the destruction was caused by explosives, what is your argument? The US is too competent to do such a bad job (17 hours apart and only 3 of 4 pipes destroyed)? Does this imply we have a rogue actor or insufficiently equipped one to blame? Who?

hedora 4y ago
Was it established that it was caused by explosives? The last time the US did this, it was by adding malicious code into pipeline control software (before the USSR stole the software from a US company).
- peterfirefly 4y ago
  > Was it established that it was caused by explosives? Yes.
tlear 4y ago
He is right that sonar buoy detonation thing sounds like absolute bullshit. Incredibly risky and 17 hours.. I mean you want to do this, send a submarine, it fires few torpedoes. No more pipeline. Fast, simple, reliable. Let's say I am a Ukranian patriot, with few million in the bank. I bet given few month I could put together a team of divers to plant some C4 with a simple timer and blow this thing to hell. Or Polish patriot, or Polish government or any of the Baltic states. It is an existential struggle for all of them, and russkie understand one thing and one thing only, this was a very clear communication straight to Putin.
- throwayyy479087 4y ago
  I think it’s the Polish. Apparently their relationship with Russia is similar to a very angry pitbull has with steak. They were mass rapes by the Soviets at the end of World War II and horrible conditions for the Polish during the Soviet empire. Polish friends say there’s no shortage of young men who want the glory of blowing up something owned by the people who gang raped Grandma.
  - airtonix 4y ago
    [dead]
  - partiallypro 4y ago
    I can totally see it being the Polish, but I don't think there is a clear finger that points to anyone (including the US and Russia.) This does sound more plausible than the US. If the US did it, it would literally be done with support of other NATO allies (including Germany itself, and in secret.) It's simply too risky for them to end up destroying the entire NATO relationship, which they would not risk at this juncture...so it doesn't really make sense. Poland on the other hand, would still be a buffer between the rest of Europe and Russia even if Ukraine falls...so they have a lot less to lose, because no one is going to really punish them. I still feel it as -probably- Russia, but I don't think there is enough evidence, and it's very likely we'll just never know. The US theory to me is just logically bunk.
    - chii 4y ago
      > It's simply too risky for them to end up destroying the entire NATO relationship and also the pipelines area already denied being approved by germany at the time. The risk of blowing it up to make it irreversible seems to lack any real gains vs the risk it entails.
    - gregw2 4y ago
      Is there any plausible scenario where Ukraine did it, with or without help?
  - landemva 4y ago
    [flagged]
  - colonCapitalDee 4y ago
    Yeah, Poles hate Russians, and the polling numbers back it up. Pew found 94% of Poles think Russia is a "major threat", and 91% have "very unfavorable views of Russia". https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/22/spotlight-on-poland-negative-views-of-russia-surge-but-ratings-for-u-s-nato-eu-improve/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/22/spotlight-on-p...
- cycomanic 4y ago
  Yeah right, and you would be picked up by a Russian patrol boat pretty quickly. The article doesn't insinuate that the operation itself is difficult, but to do it without anyone detecting it and not leaving enough of a trace that things can be tracked back to you.
  - mannerheim 4y ago
    Given the state of the Russian Navy, I wouldn't trust them to patrol a pond, let alone the Baltic Sea.
- gmokki 4y ago
  I immediately told my friends that it could have been the danish submarine guy who killed tournalist and was supposedly in prison, when actually an intelligence agency got him out to do this task. It was fun how far we could speculate this random fake story. It was at least as plausible as this story.
foxyv 4y ago
I think his argument is that the explanation offered by the author is implausible. When someone comes forward with such claims, the main means of determining it's veracity is to verify the details provided. Typically fabrications will contain small inconsistencies that don't match facts known only to investigators, verified witnesses, or experts in the subject matter. I think their implication is that none of us really know what happened, much less the author of this article.
weatherlight 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents # really should be called incidents, not accidents. Pipelines of all types are fragile things and break all the time for numerous reasons. Do not attribute to malice which can be explained by negligence/incompetence with out evidence. The Nordstream pipelines were not in operation, which indicated the need for maintenance. The pipelines, which carry methane under saltwater, require frequent preventive maintenance checks and services, however, it is believed that these checks may have been neglected since the Russians took over. The pipelines were officially shut down for maintenance in July 2020 and July 2021, but were met with various issues and disruptions in gas flow. Given the pressurized and highly flammable nature of the pipelines, it is imperative to determine the causes of these issues. Sabotage cannot be ruled out, especially given the current geopolitical climate. However, the most likely cause could be related to the formation of methane hydrates, which can cause blockages in the pipeline known as hydrate plugs. These plugs can be difficult to remove and require a slow and simultaneous depressurization from both ends of the pipeline. Remember, both sides, this is important! If the depressurization is not carried out correctly, it can result in the rapid launch of the hydrate plug towards the depressurized side, causing significant damage to the pipeline. The Diesel Effect, which occurs when the valves are closed ahead of the fast-moving plug, can also cause significant damage. It is crucial that the removal of hydrate plugs be carried out by experienced professionals, given the potential consequences of a failure to do so. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/hydrate-natural-gas https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/hydrate-nat... https://www.stssensors.com/blog/2020/07/01/the-diesel-effect-in-hydraulic-systems-material-damage-is-the-outcome/ https://www.stssensors.com/blog/2020/07/01/the-diesel-effect... EDIT: Formatting
ZeroGravitas 4y ago
Was it ever established whether the fourth pipeline was even attacked? Did it have explosives attached that didn't go off? (And if so do they have a convenient "made in ..." sticker?) Would have been interesting to hear the alleged source give a reason for only blowing up 3 of 4 pipes in a plan they call "perfect".

by oezi 4y ago

hedora 4y ago

Was it established that it was caused by explosives? The last time the US did this, it was by adding malicious code into pipeline control software (before the USSR stole the software from a US company).

peterfirefly 4y ago
> Was it established that it was caused by explosives? Yes.

tlear 4y ago

He is right that sonar buoy detonation thing sounds like absolute bullshit. Incredibly risky and 17 hours.. I mean you want to do this, send a submarine, it fires few torpedoes. No more pipeline. Fast, simple, reliable. Let's say I am a Ukranian patriot, with few million in the bank. I bet given few month I could put together a team of divers to plant some C4 with a simple timer and blow this thing to hell. Or Polish patriot, or Polish government or any of the Baltic states. It is an existential struggle for all of them, and russkie understand one thing and one thing only, this was a very clear communication straight to Putin.

throwayyy479087 4y ago
I think it’s the Polish. Apparently their relationship with Russia is similar to a very angry pitbull has with steak. They were mass rapes by the Soviets at the end of World War II and horrible conditions for the Polish during the Soviet empire. Polish friends say there’s no shortage of young men who want the glory of blowing up something owned by the people who gang raped Grandma.
- airtonix 4y ago
  [dead]
- partiallypro 4y ago
  I can totally see it being the Polish, but I don't think there is a clear finger that points to anyone (including the US and Russia.) This does sound more plausible than the US. If the US did it, it would literally be done with support of other NATO allies (including Germany itself, and in secret.) It's simply too risky for them to end up destroying the entire NATO relationship, which they would not risk at this juncture...so it doesn't really make sense. Poland on the other hand, would still be a buffer between the rest of Europe and Russia even if Ukraine falls...so they have a lot less to lose, because no one is going to really punish them. I still feel it as -probably- Russia, but I don't think there is enough evidence, and it's very likely we'll just never know. The US theory to me is just logically bunk.
  - chii 4y ago
    > It's simply too risky for them to end up destroying the entire NATO relationship and also the pipelines area already denied being approved by germany at the time. The risk of blowing it up to make it irreversible seems to lack any real gains vs the risk it entails.
  - gregw2 4y ago
    Is there any plausible scenario where Ukraine did it, with or without help?
- landemva 4y ago
  [flagged]
- colonCapitalDee 4y ago
  Yeah, Poles hate Russians, and the polling numbers back it up. Pew found 94% of Poles think Russia is a "major threat", and 91% have "very unfavorable views of Russia". https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/22/spotlight-on-poland-negative-views-of-russia-surge-but-ratings-for-u-s-nato-eu-improve/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/22/spotlight-on-p...
cycomanic 4y ago
Yeah right, and you would be picked up by a Russian patrol boat pretty quickly. The article doesn't insinuate that the operation itself is difficult, but to do it without anyone detecting it and not leaving enough of a trace that things can be tracked back to you.
- mannerheim 4y ago
  Given the state of the Russian Navy, I wouldn't trust them to patrol a pond, let alone the Baltic Sea.
gmokki 4y ago
I immediately told my friends that it could have been the danish submarine guy who killed tournalist and was supposedly in prison, when actually an intelligence agency got him out to do this task. It was fun how far we could speculate this random fake story. It was at least as plausible as this story.

foxyv 4y ago

I think his argument is that the explanation offered by the author is implausible. When someone comes forward with such claims, the main means of determining it's veracity is to verify the details provided. Typically fabrications will contain small inconsistencies that don't match facts known only to investigators, verified witnesses, or experts in the subject matter. I think their implication is that none of us really know what happened, much less the author of this article.

weatherlight 4y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pipeline_accidents # really should be called incidents, not accidents. Pipelines of all types are fragile things and break all the time for numerous reasons. Do not attribute to malice which can be explained by negligence/incompetence with out evidence. The Nordstream pipelines were not in operation, which indicated the need for maintenance. The pipelines, which carry methane under saltwater, require frequent preventive maintenance checks and services, however, it is believed that these checks may have been neglected since the Russians took over. The pipelines were officially shut down for maintenance in July 2020 and July 2021, but were met with various issues and disruptions in gas flow. Given the pressurized and highly flammable nature of the pipelines, it is imperative to determine the causes of these issues. Sabotage cannot be ruled out, especially given the current geopolitical climate. However, the most likely cause could be related to the formation of methane hydrates, which can cause blockages in the pipeline known as hydrate plugs. These plugs can be difficult to remove and require a slow and simultaneous depressurization from both ends of the pipeline. Remember, both sides, this is important! If the depressurization is not carried out correctly, it can result in the rapid launch of the hydrate plug towards the depressurized side, causing significant damage to the pipeline. The Diesel Effect, which occurs when the valves are closed ahead of the fast-moving plug, can also cause significant damage. It is crucial that the removal of hydrate plugs be carried out by experienced professionals, given the potential consequences of a failure to do so. https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/hydrate-natural-gas https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/hydrate-nat... https://www.stssensors.com/blog/2020/07/01/the-diesel-effect-in-hydraulic-systems-material-damage-is-the-outcome/ https://www.stssensors.com/blog/2020/07/01/the-diesel-effect... EDIT: Formatting

ZeroGravitas 4y ago

Was it ever established whether the fourth pipeline was even attacked? Did it have explosives attached that didn't go off? (And if so do they have a convenient "made in ..." sticker?) Would have been interesting to hear the alleged source give a reason for only blowing up 3 of 4 pipes in a plan they call "perfect".