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As an Apple investor, I wish that Apple would do more to make working conditions such that the retail employees would be less likely to want to join a union. A

As an Apple investor, I wish that Apple would do more to make working conditions such that the retail employees would be less likely to want to join a union. A large share of the employee grievances will be things not related to pay and could be helped by having ways for the employees in the stores to communicate their needs to corporate.

Arkanum 4y ago
I might argue that the issue is not "having ways for the employees in the stores to communicate their needs to corporate.". But rather having corporate act on those needs, and in the face of larger investors like Buffet and Vanguard, who would probably like more to see dividends and share price increases, unions are a good way to balance the scales a bit.
danpalmer 4y ago
That's not incompatible with unionisation. Union employees still have company bosses who will hopefully try to make their working environment better for them. What won't change is the employment contract, as that will be negotiated collectively, but those are typically the same for all employees anyway, at least for hourly waged jobs like this. I don't think there's really much of a downside to unionisation here. It's not like one staff member asking to be paid more was ever going to happen being such a small cog in such a big machine.
- changoplatanero 4y ago
  > I don't think there's really much of a downside to unionisation here. This thread started off from the perspective of an apple investor not a retail employee. As an investor, I think there is a real downside to unionization.
  - mort96 4y ago
    And that real downside is that it affects your stock portfolio. It improves the life of those unionizing, but that has no direct benefit to your bank account, so you wish they'd just accept the low wages, right?
capableweb 4y ago
> A large share of the employee grievances will be things not related to pay Might be in other cases, but in this case it's about low pay, and shitty shift patterns: > Reportedly, retail staff at Apple Glasgow earn 12 ($15) per hour. Workers at the store say that low wages, plus unfair shift patterns and a lack of pay transparency have prompted the move toward unionization. https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/10/glasgow-apple-store-staff-join-union-ask-apple-to-recognize-it https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/10/glasgow-apple-sto... They seem to also have asked for ways to enable better communication to corporate but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, even their colleagues in other countries have ways but no one listens: > "In the UK, Apple have staff forums, but these are continually shown to be ineffectual and feedback is ignored," one anonymous worker told the Glasgow Evening Times. "It is a one-way conversation." I guess the conclusion is that people tried, Apple didn't want to, so now the workers forced them to listen. I hope workers in other countries are following what's happening here and realize they have more power than what they think.
- KennyBlanken 4y ago
  In the wake of someone driving an SUV through an Apple store, I saw a LinkedIn post by some VP of retail stores. They were in a position that sounded sort of like they were in an HR-ish, "people management" role. Lots of talk about family, and close knit this, and "it's my job to support them" that. The usual self-righteous linkedin bullshit, but unusually brazen given someone was killed and a couple people injured. I remember thinking "if they're so 'supported' by one of the world's richest companies, why do so many of them want to unionize?" $15/hour for high-end retail is peanuts in almost any urban area. Given how much cash Apple has, and how fast they continue to accumulate it, they can absolutely afford to pay a livable wage to their retail employees.
  - skippyboxedhero 4y ago
    $15/hour in Glasgow in retail is good. That is £19k/year net. The minimum wage in the UK is ~£9.50, and a lot of people in retail will be on substantially less (because the rate varies by age). You may not know a lot about Glasgow either, it isn't like "any urban area". It is one of the poorest places in the UK, massive opioid problem, lowest life expectancy in the UK (in the poorest areas), derelict housing everywhere, highest rate of refugees per capita, high levels of violent crime (amazingly, this has got substantially better and it is still terrible by the metric of anyone familiar with crime in other countries)...the only big employers are govt and retail, this compares well with low-skill govt work. You cannot compare this to any city in the US either, maybe Detroit or somewhere? But the US is just another world relative to Europe (Glasgow is more like somewhere like rural West Virginia...but a city).
Gordonjcp 4y ago
Why would you not want the employees to join a union?
- Melatonic 4y ago
  Theoretically if we had perfect labor laws and companies had a profit motive to keep their employees happy then Unionization might not be necessary (and could create additional overhead). But this is a VERY idealistic scenario. I say this as someone who is very pro union.
Melatonic 4y ago
It pretty much always comes down to pay (assuming there are not dangerous working conditions). People will say things like "too many hours" but you know what? If you pay a shitload for those then generally people (or at least some of them) will be okay with the overtime.
maxsilver 4y ago
> As an Apple investor, (things) could be helped by having ways for the employees in the stores to communicate their needs. (snip) A large share of the employee grievances will be things not related to pay They've already communicated their needs (wages are too low), and you've already dismissed their concerns. Your comment here is kind of proving exactly why Apple employees so desperately need to unionize -- they aren't going to get fairer wages any other way.

Arkanum 4y ago

I might argue that the issue is not "having ways for the employees in the stores to communicate their needs to corporate.". But rather having corporate act on those needs, and in the face of larger investors like Buffet and Vanguard, who would probably like more to see dividends and share price increases, unions are a good way to balance the scales a bit.

danpalmer 4y ago

That's not incompatible with unionisation. Union employees still have company bosses who will hopefully try to make their working environment better for them. What won't change is the employment contract, as that will be negotiated collectively, but those are typically the same for all employees anyway, at least for hourly waged jobs like this. I don't think there's really much of a downside to unionisation here. It's not like one staff member asking to be paid more was ever going to happen being such a small cog in such a big machine.

changoplatanero 4y ago
> I don't think there's really much of a downside to unionisation here. This thread started off from the perspective of an apple investor not a retail employee. As an investor, I think there is a real downside to unionization.
- mort96 4y ago
  And that real downside is that it affects your stock portfolio. It improves the life of those unionizing, but that has no direct benefit to your bank account, so you wish they'd just accept the low wages, right?

capableweb 4y ago

> A large share of the employee grievances will be things not related to pay Might be in other cases, but in this case it's about low pay, and shitty shift patterns: > Reportedly, retail staff at Apple Glasgow earn 12 ($15) per hour. Workers at the store say that low wages, plus unfair shift patterns and a lack of pay transparency have prompted the move toward unionization. https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/10/glasgow-apple-store-staff-join-union-ask-apple-to-recognize-it https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/10/glasgow-apple-sto... They seem to also have asked for ways to enable better communication to corporate but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears, even their colleagues in other countries have ways but no one listens: > "In the UK, Apple have staff forums, but these are continually shown to be ineffectual and feedback is ignored," one anonymous worker told the Glasgow Evening Times. "It is a one-way conversation." I guess the conclusion is that people tried, Apple didn't want to, so now the workers forced them to listen. I hope workers in other countries are following what's happening here and realize they have more power than what they think.

KennyBlanken 4y ago
In the wake of someone driving an SUV through an Apple store, I saw a LinkedIn post by some VP of retail stores. They were in a position that sounded sort of like they were in an HR-ish, "people management" role. Lots of talk about family, and close knit this, and "it's my job to support them" that. The usual self-righteous linkedin bullshit, but unusually brazen given someone was killed and a couple people injured. I remember thinking "if they're so 'supported' by one of the world's richest companies, why do so many of them want to unionize?" $15/hour for high-end retail is peanuts in almost any urban area. Given how much cash Apple has, and how fast they continue to accumulate it, they can absolutely afford to pay a livable wage to their retail employees.
- skippyboxedhero 4y ago
  $15/hour in Glasgow in retail is good. That is £19k/year net. The minimum wage in the UK is ~£9.50, and a lot of people in retail will be on substantially less (because the rate varies by age). You may not know a lot about Glasgow either, it isn't like "any urban area". It is one of the poorest places in the UK, massive opioid problem, lowest life expectancy in the UK (in the poorest areas), derelict housing everywhere, highest rate of refugees per capita, high levels of violent crime (amazingly, this has got substantially better and it is still terrible by the metric of anyone familiar with crime in other countries)...the only big employers are govt and retail, this compares well with low-skill govt work. You cannot compare this to any city in the US either, maybe Detroit or somewhere? But the US is just another world relative to Europe (Glasgow is more like somewhere like rural West Virginia...but a city).

Gordonjcp 4y ago

Why would you not want the employees to join a union?

Melatonic 4y ago
Theoretically if we had perfect labor laws and companies had a profit motive to keep their employees happy then Unionization might not be necessary (and could create additional overhead). But this is a VERY idealistic scenario. I say this as someone who is very pro union.

Melatonic 4y ago

It pretty much always comes down to pay (assuming there are not dangerous working conditions). People will say things like "too many hours" but you know what? If you pay a shitload for those then generally people (or at least some of them) will be okay with the overtime.

maxsilver 4y ago

> As an Apple investor, (things) could be helped by having ways for the employees in the stores to communicate their needs. (snip) A large share of the employee grievances will be things not related to pay They've already communicated their needs (wages are too low), and you've already dismissed their concerns. Your comment here is kind of proving exactly why Apple employees so desperately need to unionize -- they aren't going to get fairer wages any other way.