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There is no amount Nintendo could have raised salaries that would have avoided the GP comment, is the point. >> In any event, based on increases in productivit

There is no amount Nintendo could have raised salaries that would have avoided the GP comment, is the point. >> In any event, based on increases in productivity since the 80s all workers should be making at least double their salary. This is happening. It's just happening to the people who are the most productive. There is no reason productivity gains would naturally be equally distributed amongst all workers, nor the wage gains. If you are a developer, you are partially responsible for this inequality in both pay and productivity. They tend to go hand in hand. Now, if you want to argue that software developers are underpaid, I certainly agree. But we're also part of the inequality problem, and pretending otherwise would be silly.

random314 4y ago
> This is happening. It's just happening to the people who are the most productive Then why is the increased average productivity not reflected in increased average income?
- icelancer 4y ago
  Because they're eliminating the jobs of the least productive people and not paying the most productive people equivalent to the productivity gains, i.e. software developers and the technical folk. But those people are still getting paid heaps, so there aren't a lot of complaints.
  - random314 4y ago
    > not paying the most productive people equivalent to the productivity gains, i.e. software developers and the technical folk. So now you are making hawthornio's point for him! Software developers are underpaid.
    - icelancer 4y ago
      If you read up a few more comments, you'll note that I'm the one that made that point. > If you are a developer, you are partially responsible for this inequality in both pay and productivity. They tend to go hand in hand. Now, if you want to argue that software developers are underpaid, I certainly agree. But we're also part of the inequality problem, and pretending otherwise would be silly.
      - random314 4y ago
        How does being underpaid make engineers part of the inequality problem. You are talking about 2 different things. 1. Productivity benefits not being passed down to the productive people 2. Inequality I am not talking about 2, only 1.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      If I replace one staff member out of two with a machine that does half their work for them, that doesn't mean the other staff member gets a doubled salary. This is why we don't say a software engineer writing an website should get paid all the money that it would've cost to build and run a data centre for the website, but didn't have to because you used the cloud.
      - random314 4y ago
        > If I replace one staff member out of two with a machine that does half their work for them, that doesn't mean the other staff member gets a doubled salary. So who keeps the surplus amount? It has to go somewhere, why not to the group that increased their productivity?
        robertlagrant 4y ago
        If the group bought the machine out of their own money then they would automatically keep the surplus in the form of less work. If the company bought it, then the company gets the saving, and it can choose what to do with that saving.
        random314 4y ago
        Basically, capital with zero effort has the right to compound. Labor does not. The idle rich living off index funds deserve it.
8note 4y ago
For an obvious counterexample, they could have raised everyone's salary by a million bucks, or 10 million. Productivity remains unrelated to pay, labour power is the real decider. If you're irreplaceable, you can demand high wages. If somebody is willing to do you job for a thousandth the price, you're screwed, even if they suck
- icelancer 4y ago
  This statement: >> Productivity remains unrelated to pay, labour power is the real decider. Is in stark contrast to your next one: >> If you're irreplaceable, you can demand high wages. Extremely productive people carry high replacement costs. Very productive individuals have labor power. Whether they choose to band together and use it like a guild or a union is a separate matter entirely.
  - Dylan16807 4y ago
    Being irreplaceable is very different from high productivity. Being more productive than your peers barely gets you anything in most jobs.
    - icelancer 4y ago
      This is simply not true in technical fields, specifically software development. The most productive developers have high labor mobility and high rates of pay. If you don't think so, try employing the industry's most productive developers and see how cheap (or not) it is.
      - Dylan16807 4y ago
        If you're 50% more productive than someone else, that's a lot of productivity, but it's very hard to measure in a software development situation. I'm not really talking about the top handful of people.
    - robertlagrant 4y ago
      No, it is productivity. You're talking about how hard it is to measure productivity in some jobs. Not whether or not productivity is valuable.
rtpg 4y ago
a sibling comment mentioned that Ninty is making 500k USD per head in profit. Salary postings sound like engineers at 10 years of experience are not making more than 100k USD. Entry at 50k. This is like.. not super lowball in Japan, but hell of a lot of companies with a lot less profit paying more. We aren't talking about companies as a whole, we're looking at a specific company. The mental gymnastics of "well more productive employees are getting paid more" with salaries of ICs not being _that_ much higher... I dunno.
WetMinister 4y ago
> There is no amount Nintendo could have raised salaries that would have avoided the GP comment, is the point. Correct. Which is exactly as it should be, as there also is no amount of profit increase that would satisfy company owners.
mschuster91 4y ago
> This is happening. It's just happening to the people who are the most productive. Oftentimes, not even that - just look at CEO compensation explosion over the last decade [1]. The real money ends up at shareholders and uppermost echelons of management, not at any level of the worker class. > There is no reason productivity gains would naturally be equally distributed amongst all workers, nor the wage gains. There is a reason, it's called unions - and it's no secret that the explosion of C-level compensation came together with union-busting laws and the general decline of unions. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/261463/ceo-to-worker-compensation-ratio-of-top-firms-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/261463/ceo-to-worker-com...

random314 4y ago

> This is happening. It's just happening to the people who are the most productive Then why is the increased average productivity not reflected in increased average income?

icelancer 4y ago
Because they're eliminating the jobs of the least productive people and not paying the most productive people equivalent to the productivity gains, i.e. software developers and the technical folk. But those people are still getting paid heaps, so there aren't a lot of complaints.
- random314 4y ago
  > not paying the most productive people equivalent to the productivity gains, i.e. software developers and the technical folk. So now you are making hawthornio's point for him! Software developers are underpaid.
  - icelancer 4y ago
    If you read up a few more comments, you'll note that I'm the one that made that point. > If you are a developer, you are partially responsible for this inequality in both pay and productivity. They tend to go hand in hand. Now, if you want to argue that software developers are underpaid, I certainly agree. But we're also part of the inequality problem, and pretending otherwise would be silly.
    - random314 4y ago
      How does being underpaid make engineers part of the inequality problem. You are talking about 2 different things. 1. Productivity benefits not being passed down to the productive people 2. Inequality I am not talking about 2, only 1.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    If I replace one staff member out of two with a machine that does half their work for them, that doesn't mean the other staff member gets a doubled salary. This is why we don't say a software engineer writing an website should get paid all the money that it would've cost to build and run a data centre for the website, but didn't have to because you used the cloud.
    - random314 4y ago
      > If I replace one staff member out of two with a machine that does half their work for them, that doesn't mean the other staff member gets a doubled salary. So who keeps the surplus amount? It has to go somewhere, why not to the group that increased their productivity?
      - robertlagrant 4y ago
        If the group bought the machine out of their own money then they would automatically keep the surplus in the form of less work. If the company bought it, then the company gets the saving, and it can choose what to do with that saving.
        random314 4y ago
        Basically, capital with zero effort has the right to compound. Labor does not. The idle rich living off index funds deserve it.

8note 4y ago

For an obvious counterexample, they could have raised everyone's salary by a million bucks, or 10 million. Productivity remains unrelated to pay, labour power is the real decider. If you're irreplaceable, you can demand high wages. If somebody is willing to do you job for a thousandth the price, you're screwed, even if they suck

icelancer 4y ago
This statement: >> Productivity remains unrelated to pay, labour power is the real decider. Is in stark contrast to your next one: >> If you're irreplaceable, you can demand high wages. Extremely productive people carry high replacement costs. Very productive individuals have labor power. Whether they choose to band together and use it like a guild or a union is a separate matter entirely.
- Dylan16807 4y ago
  Being irreplaceable is very different from high productivity. Being more productive than your peers barely gets you anything in most jobs.
  - icelancer 4y ago
    This is simply not true in technical fields, specifically software development. The most productive developers have high labor mobility and high rates of pay. If you don't think so, try employing the industry's most productive developers and see how cheap (or not) it is.
    - Dylan16807 4y ago
      If you're 50% more productive than someone else, that's a lot of productivity, but it's very hard to measure in a software development situation. I'm not really talking about the top handful of people.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    No, it is productivity. You're talking about how hard it is to measure productivity in some jobs. Not whether or not productivity is valuable.

rtpg 4y ago

a sibling comment mentioned that Ninty is making 500k USD per head in profit. Salary postings sound like engineers at 10 years of experience are not making more than 100k USD. Entry at 50k. This is like.. not super lowball in Japan, but hell of a lot of companies with a lot less profit paying more. We aren't talking about companies as a whole, we're looking at a specific company. The mental gymnastics of "well more productive employees are getting paid more" with salaries of ICs not being _that_ much higher... I dunno.

WetMinister 4y ago

> There is no amount Nintendo could have raised salaries that would have avoided the GP comment, is the point. Correct. Which is exactly as it should be, as there also is no amount of profit increase that would satisfy company owners.

mschuster91 4y ago

> This is happening. It's just happening to the people who are the most productive. Oftentimes, not even that - just look at CEO compensation explosion over the last decade [1]. The real money ends up at shareholders and uppermost echelons of management, not at any level of the worker class. > There is no reason productivity gains would naturally be equally distributed amongst all workers, nor the wage gains. There is a reason, it's called unions - and it's no secret that the explosion of C-level compensation came together with union-busting laws and the general decline of unions. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/261463/ceo-to-worker-compensation-ratio-of-top-firms-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/261463/ceo-to-worker-com...