8 ms·

Mukarram Jah, Heir to an Opulent Throne He Abandoned, Dies at 89

96 points by gumby 4y ago

boomboomsubban 4y ago
https://archive.is/NEHju https://archive.is/NEHju
fmajid 4y ago
There is a legend about the first Nizam of Hyderabad. Here is Narendra Luther's version: "When the Nizam was returning to the Deccan, on one of his hunting expeditions, he lost his way. Thirsty and hungry, he approached a hermit for succour. All that the saint could offer him was dry, baked bread called kulcha, and plain water. The exhausted noble had his fill. The hermit counted the remaining loaves in his basket and said, My son, you have eaten seven loaves. Your family will rule for seven generations. God bless you." The last actual ruling Nizam, Mir Osman Ali Khan, was parsimonious in his personal life and spent on public works instead. Sadly he could not quell the violent terrorist movement of the Razakars during the convulsions of Indian independence, and this led to both murders by the Razakars and a violent blowback from the Hindu majority, the government inquiries on the scale of the massacres are still classified to this day. His grandson Mukarram Jah was the opposite and dilapidated his inheritance.
- hasmanean 4y ago
  He ate seven kulchas? Must have been hungry. Although if I had to eat plain naan without any other side dishes…I might eat 7 too.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    What's the difference between kulcha and naan? At first glance, it looks like kulcha is heartier and thicker?
    - alephnerd 4y ago
      So I can only speak for Amritsari and Dogra/Kaladi Kulche but they are basically lighter than Naan and supposed to be more smokey (because they've been in the tandoor longer), and if it's a Kaladi Kulche, it's topped with Kaladi Paneer. Also, Kulche need to be pan fried. The style of "Naan" I've eaten in the home country (which in hindsight may technically count as Shirmal) is much less smokey and harsh, and much heavier. The naan they serve in most Indian restaurants here in US/Canada is much lighter than home style naans and also not cooked as long in a tandoor - which is unsurprising because their profit margins are massive on Naan and Rice. At least in Pahari regions, Kulche and Tandoori Roti tend to be the staple, not Naan.
      - selimthegrim 4y ago
        Sheermal tends to be wedding fare in my experience
        alephnerd 4y ago
        Yea. I'm using the term loosely. Like the Naan which I'd have in my dad's village had egg, maida, dahi, and atta and would be put in a tandoor. I thought sheermal is the same except with Saffron and Sugar.
        ethbr0 4y ago
        Thanks for taking the time to type that out! It's fascinating how many "bread type" things there are in the category, and how regionally specific details of each can be. I'll have to pay more attention and try options next time I'm out.
    - q7xvh97o2pDhNrh 4y ago
      Intuitively, I think of "naan" as fluffier; with a more interesting shape (triangle, rather than the usual circle); and usually topped (if not stuffed) with some thoughtful sprinkling of garlic, herbs, etc. In general, though, by the time you collect all the things that could be "kulcha" and all the things that could be "naan," you end up with a Venn diagram that has a pretty healthy overlap. A lot depends on regional variations and individual chefs. In a restaurant situation in modern times, you'd generally expect "naan" to cover the usual breads that people want/expect, given the popularity of the word at this point, whereas "kulcha" is probably reserved for the chef's desire to do something a little more interesting (e.g., an elaborate stuffing) in bread that might also be cooked slightly differently. You can likely bank on the triangle/circle difference, but... you never know. In the context of the myth, it likely underlines the simplicity and home-made nature of the bread, especially because of the note about the water. Kulcha can be made with fewer ingredients, if you imagine the simplest possible "kulcha" compared to the simplest possible "naan." So the vibe I got from the story is, "This saint lives such a simple and enlightened life that he doesn't even bother with the fancy fluffy restaurant breads; a simple home-made kulcha will do just fine." TL;DR: It's complicated, and it's still tough these days to find a half-decent paratha.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  *dissipated might be a better word
ethbr0 4y ago
What a life! > His father sued him for a greater share of the family wealth. His aunt sued him. Eventually the ranks of litigants would swell to several thousand descendants of the seven previous nizams. Then, in 1971, the Indian government cut off the nizam’s allowance and abolished the royal court’s titles. That combination of events would be tough to get through! Family legal squabbles are rough, emotionally and financially. A gradual weaning or reform of government funding would have probably been successful in the long run. It's fascinating when people with historical fortunes, titles, and rigid social expectations of them suddenly have the latter two disappear. Usually followed by the former. Most of my enjoyment of Downton Abbey was of the unraveling and restitching of the social contact. Warm ending to this story that he had the humility to ask his ex-wife (Princess Esra) to attempt to preserve and share the hereditary legacy. And that she apparently did an extremely capable job. Kudos! Preserving and presenting history, good, bad, or ugly, is important.
- JoeAltmaier 4y ago
  I dunno. Hero worship of magical people is weird. Same kind of things happens all the time with 'real' people, not gonna write a miniseries about it.
  - galleywest200 4y ago
    Recording history is still worth the effort. It would be great if everybody could be easily remebered. With modern social media this may be closer to reality.
- gautamdivgi 4y ago
  Indian royal families were mostly despots who were left to do what they wanted as long as the British got what they want. They didn’t own anything. It’s basically stolen off the backs of people. I have no love lost there or any grief at them being cut off.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    It's important to remember all history for exactly this reason though! I.e. "Here's a thing we tried, and exactly how it went wrong"
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
netsharc 4y ago
Somehow the idea of ex-royalty among normal people fascinates me, this article reminds me of the (fictional) book A Gentleman in Moscow
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  It’s always weird to me that we’re living in the only time in thousands of years where we don’t have royalty in most societies. You could have been born in any place in any time since human civilization started and you would likely have some form of nobility ruling over you.
  - fakedang 4y ago
    Oh, we do have royalty these days too. But think something on the lines of Serene Doges and Italian Signorias of the Renaissance era. Private citizens amassing enough wealth and power to control governments not only during their lifetimes, but the lifetimes of their children as well, not unlike Sforza in Milan or the Medicis.
    - tibbydudeza 4y ago
      Bollywood stars - sometimes the literally get away with murder.
  - User23 4y ago
    We still have a relatively small elite ruling over us, we just don't actually know who they are anymore. Whether or not that's progress is a matter of opinion I suppose.
- bakul 4y ago
  FWIW, I first learned about radio and electronics from an ex-royal! When in the fourth grade I started taking apart radios and breaking them, my father took me, along with the broken radio, to the local radio repair place (that may have been the only one at the time in Ahmedabad, India). The owner was an old man of 70 or so. He taught me the very basic stuff and helped me build a crystal radio and soon I graduated to building fancier stuff! Everyone called him Bapu (father). Later on I learned he was a prince from a small princely state in the Western Gujarat. India forcibly merged all 500+ such principalities in the Union once it became independent. These princes had a "princely purse", a govt allowance, to maintain their status for a while but that ended in 1956. Bapu had a degree in radio and electronics from UK so he set up the repair shop which happened to be within the walking distance from my home. When I met him he had no royal airs; he was more like a kindly grandfather who had infinite patience for a skinny undisciplined but inquisitive kid!
MrDunham 4y ago
Could someone help me see the ties to hacker/dev/startup culture here? While I agree that this is news and it's a fascinating story, it feels like something more for Reddit than for HN. But that's probably my naïveté or dad-of-an-infant sleep deprivation. Interesting story just doesn't seem like HN material. But please correct me if I'm wrong or help me see the connection
- niemandhier 4y ago
  The same way Amerika centric political posts or Eurocentric news about Ukraine do ( both of which I read frequently): There are many people here who are related to the culture and care.
- thyssen 4y ago
  Throwaway for a bit of banter. I like how every time this is brought up, Reddit is used as an example. But Reddit has far, far more interesting and nuanced discussions that includes many people at the top of their respective fields. Nobody noteworthy would do an AMA on HN, but they all do it on Reddit. A comment here or there doesn’t really move the needle on the over all trajectory. HN is more of a midwit sort of place, where you don’t get the shitposters or the exceedingly brilliant because the band is so narrow and conformist that nobody wants to deal with being downvoted/removed over the most trivial things. And then when people find out just how wrong the audience here can be, as attested by actual professionals usually taking the top comment to correct the majority of, then you really just might as well not bother with HN at all and stick with Reddit for breadth and depth. So yes, Reddit is probably the better place for this article, along with just about every other article posted here.
  - samvher 4y ago
    > as attested by actual professionals usually taking the top comment to correct the majority of Got a bit confused here, what is this sentence? I agree that the band on HN is somewhat narrow, though I feel it is a distinctly different band from most other places which makes it worth visiting. Any subreddits in particular you recommend for high quality discourse?
cushychicken 4y ago
This story supports my personal theory that royalty is a form of human cruelty.
- User23 4y ago
  I don't generally agree, but when I hear about the lives of members of Japan's royal family it does appear that you have something of a point. They are basically prisoners in a very gilded cage.
communism 4y ago
[flagged]
archon1410 4y ago
> "I love this place: miles and miles of open country and not a bloody Indian in sight," Mr. Jah said, as Mr. Hobday recalled to Mr. Zubrzycki. I only know of these old nizams and rulers from portrayals as incompetent narcissistic despots in Indian popular literature and television shows. The reality it seems is not far from it. Good riddance.
- alephnerd 4y ago
  After dealing with the traffic in Charminar, I'd probably share the same sentiment.

96 points by gumby 4y ago

https://archive.is/NEHju https://archive.is/NEHju

There is a legend about the first Nizam of Hyderabad. Here is Narendra Luther's version: "When the Nizam was returning to the Deccan, on one of his hunting expeditions, he lost his way. Thirsty and hungry, he approached a hermit for succour. All that the saint could offer him was dry, baked bread called kulcha, and plain water. The exhausted noble had his fill. The hermit counted the remaining loaves in his basket and said, My son, you have eaten seven loaves. Your family will rule for seven generations. God bless you." The last actual ruling Nizam, Mir Osman Ali Khan, was parsimonious in his personal life and spent on public works instead. Sadly he could not quell the violent terrorist movement of the Razakars during the convulsions of Indian independence, and this led to both murders by the Razakars and a violent blowback from the Hindu majority, the government inquiries on the scale of the massacres are still classified to this day. His grandson Mukarram Jah was the opposite and dilapidated his inheritance.

hasmanean 4y ago
He ate seven kulchas? Must have been hungry. Although if I had to eat plain naan without any other side dishes…I might eat 7 too.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  What's the difference between kulcha and naan? At first glance, it looks like kulcha is heartier and thicker?
  - alephnerd 4y ago
    So I can only speak for Amritsari and Dogra/Kaladi Kulche but they are basically lighter than Naan and supposed to be more smokey (because they've been in the tandoor longer), and if it's a Kaladi Kulche, it's topped with Kaladi Paneer. Also, Kulche need to be pan fried. The style of "Naan" I've eaten in the home country (which in hindsight may technically count as Shirmal) is much less smokey and harsh, and much heavier. The naan they serve in most Indian restaurants here in US/Canada is much lighter than home style naans and also not cooked as long in a tandoor - which is unsurprising because their profit margins are massive on Naan and Rice. At least in Pahari regions, Kulche and Tandoori Roti tend to be the staple, not Naan.
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      Sheermal tends to be wedding fare in my experience
      - alephnerd 4y ago
        Yea. I'm using the term loosely. Like the Naan which I'd have in my dad's village had egg, maida, dahi, and atta and would be put in a tandoor. I thought sheermal is the same except with Saffron and Sugar.
        ethbr0 4y ago
        Thanks for taking the time to type that out! It's fascinating how many "bread type" things there are in the category, and how regionally specific details of each can be. I'll have to pay more attention and try options next time I'm out.
  - q7xvh97o2pDhNrh 4y ago
    Intuitively, I think of "naan" as fluffier; with a more interesting shape (triangle, rather than the usual circle); and usually topped (if not stuffed) with some thoughtful sprinkling of garlic, herbs, etc. In general, though, by the time you collect all the things that could be "kulcha" and all the things that could be "naan," you end up with a Venn diagram that has a pretty healthy overlap. A lot depends on regional variations and individual chefs. In a restaurant situation in modern times, you'd generally expect "naan" to cover the usual breads that people want/expect, given the popularity of the word at this point, whereas "kulcha" is probably reserved for the chef's desire to do something a little more interesting (e.g., an elaborate stuffing) in bread that might also be cooked slightly differently. You can likely bank on the triangle/circle difference, but... you never know. In the context of the myth, it likely underlines the simplicity and home-made nature of the bread, especially because of the note about the water. Kulcha can be made with fewer ingredients, if you imagine the simplest possible "kulcha" compared to the simplest possible "naan." So the vibe I got from the story is, "This saint lives such a simple and enlightened life that he doesn't even bother with the fancy fluffy restaurant breads; a simple home-made kulcha will do just fine." TL;DR: It's complicated, and it's still tough these days to find a half-decent paratha.
selimthegrim 4y ago
*dissipated might be a better word

ethbr0 4y ago

What a life! > His father sued him for a greater share of the family wealth. His aunt sued him. Eventually the ranks of litigants would swell to several thousand descendants of the seven previous nizams. Then, in 1971, the Indian government cut off the nizam’s allowance and abolished the royal court’s titles. That combination of events would be tough to get through! Family legal squabbles are rough, emotionally and financially. A gradual weaning or reform of government funding would have probably been successful in the long run. It's fascinating when people with historical fortunes, titles, and rigid social expectations of them suddenly have the latter two disappear. Usually followed by the former. Most of my enjoyment of Downton Abbey was of the unraveling and restitching of the social contact. Warm ending to this story that he had the humility to ask his ex-wife (Princess Esra) to attempt to preserve and share the hereditary legacy. And that she apparently did an extremely capable job. Kudos! Preserving and presenting history, good, bad, or ugly, is important.

JoeAltmaier 4y ago
I dunno. Hero worship of magical people is weird. Same kind of things happens all the time with 'real' people, not gonna write a miniseries about it.
- galleywest200 4y ago
  Recording history is still worth the effort. It would be great if everybody could be easily remebered. With modern social media this may be closer to reality.
gautamdivgi 4y ago
Indian royal families were mostly despots who were left to do what they wanted as long as the British got what they want. They didn’t own anything. It’s basically stolen off the backs of people. I have no love lost there or any grief at them being cut off.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  It's important to remember all history for exactly this reason though! I.e. "Here's a thing we tried, and exactly how it went wrong"

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

netsharc 4y ago

Somehow the idea of ex-royalty among normal people fascinates me, this article reminds me of the (fictional) book A Gentleman in Moscow

spaceman_2020 4y ago
It’s always weird to me that we’re living in the only time in thousands of years where we don’t have royalty in most societies. You could have been born in any place in any time since human civilization started and you would likely have some form of nobility ruling over you.
- fakedang 4y ago
  Oh, we do have royalty these days too. But think something on the lines of Serene Doges and Italian Signorias of the Renaissance era. Private citizens amassing enough wealth and power to control governments not only during their lifetimes, but the lifetimes of their children as well, not unlike Sforza in Milan or the Medicis.
  - tibbydudeza 4y ago
    Bollywood stars - sometimes the literally get away with murder.
- User23 4y ago
  We still have a relatively small elite ruling over us, we just don't actually know who they are anymore. Whether or not that's progress is a matter of opinion I suppose.
bakul 4y ago
FWIW, I first learned about radio and electronics from an ex-royal! When in the fourth grade I started taking apart radios and breaking them, my father took me, along with the broken radio, to the local radio repair place (that may have been the only one at the time in Ahmedabad, India). The owner was an old man of 70 or so. He taught me the very basic stuff and helped me build a crystal radio and soon I graduated to building fancier stuff! Everyone called him Bapu (father). Later on I learned he was a prince from a small princely state in the Western Gujarat. India forcibly merged all 500+ such principalities in the Union once it became independent. These princes had a "princely purse", a govt allowance, to maintain their status for a while but that ended in 1956. Bapu had a degree in radio and electronics from UK so he set up the repair shop which happened to be within the walking distance from my home. When I met him he had no royal airs; he was more like a kindly grandfather who had infinite patience for a skinny undisciplined but inquisitive kid!

MrDunham 4y ago

Could someone help me see the ties to hacker/dev/startup culture here? While I agree that this is news and it's a fascinating story, it feels like something more for Reddit than for HN. But that's probably my naïveté or dad-of-an-infant sleep deprivation. Interesting story just doesn't seem like HN material. But please correct me if I'm wrong or help me see the connection

niemandhier 4y ago
The same way Amerika centric political posts or Eurocentric news about Ukraine do ( both of which I read frequently): There are many people here who are related to the culture and care.
thyssen 4y ago
Throwaway for a bit of banter. I like how every time this is brought up, Reddit is used as an example. But Reddit has far, far more interesting and nuanced discussions that includes many people at the top of their respective fields. Nobody noteworthy would do an AMA on HN, but they all do it on Reddit. A comment here or there doesn’t really move the needle on the over all trajectory. HN is more of a midwit sort of place, where you don’t get the shitposters or the exceedingly brilliant because the band is so narrow and conformist that nobody wants to deal with being downvoted/removed over the most trivial things. And then when people find out just how wrong the audience here can be, as attested by actual professionals usually taking the top comment to correct the majority of, then you really just might as well not bother with HN at all and stick with Reddit for breadth and depth. So yes, Reddit is probably the better place for this article, along with just about every other article posted here.
- samvher 4y ago
  > as attested by actual professionals usually taking the top comment to correct the majority of Got a bit confused here, what is this sentence? I agree that the band on HN is somewhat narrow, though I feel it is a distinctly different band from most other places which makes it worth visiting. Any subreddits in particular you recommend for high quality discourse?

cushychicken 4y ago

This story supports my personal theory that royalty is a form of human cruelty.

User23 4y ago
I don't generally agree, but when I hear about the lives of members of Japan's royal family it does appear that you have something of a point. They are basically prisoners in a very gilded cage.

communism 4y ago

[flagged]

archon1410 4y ago

> "I love this place: miles and miles of open country and not a bloody Indian in sight," Mr. Jah said, as Mr. Hobday recalled to Mr. Zubrzycki. I only know of these old nizams and rulers from portrayals as incompetent narcissistic despots in Indian popular literature and television shows. The reality it seems is not far from it. Good riddance.

alephnerd 4y ago
After dealing with the traffic in Charminar, I'd probably share the same sentiment.