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What boggles my mind is that less than 100 years after this happened, the Imperial Japanese Navy was able to give the US Navy a serious run for their money. Th

What boggles my mind is that less than 100 years after this happened, the Imperial Japanese Navy was able to give the US Navy a serious run for their money. The rapid industrial and technological development of Japan is hard to comprehend. Medieval feudalism to an industrial powerhouse in just a few decades.

hangonhn 4y ago
IIRC, Japan had a very robust banking system by the time this happened so were able to finance a lot of the capital intensive developments and industrialization necessary for them to quickly catch up.
benzofuran 4y ago
Dan Carlin's Hardcore History (episode 1: https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-supernova-in-the-east-i/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-supern...) recently did a great series "Supernova in the East" on the modernization of Japan and the internal politics. If you've got some time (drive or such), it's well worth the listen and there's a great diversity of sources.
- caycep 4y ago
  does he have a book list for that period?
  - cocacola1 4y ago
    OP replied in case you didn't see it: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/177152.Dan_Carlin_s_Hardcore_History_Supernova_in_the_East https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/177152.Dan_Carlin_s_Hard...
- benzofuran 4y ago
  Book list: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/177152.Dan_Carlin_s_Hardcore_History_Supernova_in_the_East https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/177152.Dan_Carlin_s_Hard... For some reason it didn't get appended to the podcast descriptions
JoeDaDude 4y ago
Not to mention giving China and Russia a run for their territory, first in the 1894 Sino-Japanese war, only some 40 odd years after opening up to world trade and rapidly industrializing.
wkat4242 4y ago
The Japanese navy was pretty weak which was the main reason for this sneaky Pearl Harbor attack. In a direct conflict they'd have had no chance and they tried to take out as much of the fleet off the board as they could. Of course they failed miserably by hitting the legacy battleships and missing the carriers which fit better with modern doctrine.
- chanandler_bong 4y ago
  Their biggest miss was not hitting the fuel dumps and repair facilities. Taking out a few ships, even carriers, would be easy to replace. Wiping out the logistics support capability would mean that ships would have to return to the US west coast to refuel/repair. That would have been a major disaster. Pearl Harbor was just an irritant and catalyst.
  - credit_guy 4y ago
    That's not quite correct. First of all, take a look at the map [1] of Perl Harbor from wikipedia. The oil storage tanks are listed as A, and you'll notice that they formed two different groups. By my count each had 27 tanks. If you take a look at [2], you'll see that these tanks were well separated, with an earth wall between them. It is clear that when they were built precautions were taken to prevent the spread of (accidental of intentional) fire. So, taking out the oil tanks was not as simple as dropping one bomb. You probably needed multiple passes. After the first successful pass, all others had to deal with the smoke, and more or less guess where their targets were. Of course, they would have to deal with the anti-air defenses. The second wave already took quite heavy losses, the third wave was guaranteed to incur much heavier ones. Let's say in the best case scenario, the hypothetical third Japanese wave would have destroyed half of the 54 oil tanks. It would not have made a difference. Only a success rate of 90% would have, maybe. In any case, that third wave was never planned. See [4] (written by one of hte co-authors of Shattered Sword) for convincing evidence that only 2 waves were planned, and Admiral Nagumo carried them as per the plan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#/media/File:Pearlmap2.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#/media/... [2] https://pearlharbor.org/pearl-harbors-third-strike-what-could-have-been/ https://pearlharbor.org/pearl-harbors-third-strike-what-coul... [3] https://medium.com/war-stories/the-one-key-thing-not-destroyed-at-pearl-harbor-c73b287a719 https://medium.com/war-stories/the-one-key-thing-not-destroy... [4] https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1601&context=nwc-review https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...
Maursault 4y ago
> the Imperial Japanese Navy was able to give the US Navy a serious run for their money. Sure, but not before taking out half the US Navy's battle fleet and leaving them out of commission for nearly half a year. Eventually, most damaged vessels were returned to service, but with escorts needed in the Atlantic, the Fleet was spread thin facing an opponent with more battleships with better torpedos, more carriers with better trained pilots flying (in a lot of ways) superior aircraft. Against the advice and strong objection of many high ranking naval officers, President Roosevelt's "eggs in one basket"-strategy ordering the Fleet to and to remain at Pearl Harbor as a show of force was a disastrous blunder that ultimately ensured the US would be dragged into the War under-prepared. Had Roosevelt not subsequently ordered Yamamoto taken out in 1943, the Pacific may very well have been lost.

hangonhn 4y ago

IIRC, Japan had a very robust banking system by the time this happened so were able to finance a lot of the capital intensive developments and industrialization necessary for them to quickly catch up.

benzofuran 4y ago

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History (episode 1: https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-supernova-in-the-east-i/ https://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-history-62-supern...) recently did a great series "Supernova in the East" on the modernization of Japan and the internal politics. If you've got some time (drive or such), it's well worth the listen and there's a great diversity of sources.

caycep 4y ago
does he have a book list for that period?
- cocacola1 4y ago
  OP replied in case you didn't see it: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/177152.Dan_Carlin_s_Hardcore_History_Supernova_in_the_East https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/177152.Dan_Carlin_s_Hard...
benzofuran 4y ago
Book list: https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/177152.Dan_Carlin_s_Hardcore_History_Supernova_in_the_East https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/177152.Dan_Carlin_s_Hard... For some reason it didn't get appended to the podcast descriptions

JoeDaDude 4y ago

Not to mention giving China and Russia a run for their territory, first in the 1894 Sino-Japanese war, only some 40 odd years after opening up to world trade and rapidly industrializing.

wkat4242 4y ago

The Japanese navy was pretty weak which was the main reason for this sneaky Pearl Harbor attack. In a direct conflict they'd have had no chance and they tried to take out as much of the fleet off the board as they could. Of course they failed miserably by hitting the legacy battleships and missing the carriers which fit better with modern doctrine.

chanandler_bong 4y ago
Their biggest miss was not hitting the fuel dumps and repair facilities. Taking out a few ships, even carriers, would be easy to replace. Wiping out the logistics support capability would mean that ships would have to return to the US west coast to refuel/repair. That would have been a major disaster. Pearl Harbor was just an irritant and catalyst.
- credit_guy 4y ago
  That's not quite correct. First of all, take a look at the map [1] of Perl Harbor from wikipedia. The oil storage tanks are listed as A, and you'll notice that they formed two different groups. By my count each had 27 tanks. If you take a look at [2], you'll see that these tanks were well separated, with an earth wall between them. It is clear that when they were built precautions were taken to prevent the spread of (accidental of intentional) fire. So, taking out the oil tanks was not as simple as dropping one bomb. You probably needed multiple passes. After the first successful pass, all others had to deal with the smoke, and more or less guess where their targets were. Of course, they would have to deal with the anti-air defenses. The second wave already took quite heavy losses, the third wave was guaranteed to incur much heavier ones. Let's say in the best case scenario, the hypothetical third Japanese wave would have destroyed half of the 54 oil tanks. It would not have made a difference. Only a success rate of 90% would have, maybe. In any case, that third wave was never planned. See [4] (written by one of hte co-authors of Shattered Sword) for convincing evidence that only 2 waves were planned, and Admiral Nagumo carried them as per the plan. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#/media/File:Pearlmap2.png https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#/media/... [2] https://pearlharbor.org/pearl-harbors-third-strike-what-could-have-been/ https://pearlharbor.org/pearl-harbors-third-strike-what-coul... [3] https://medium.com/war-stories/the-one-key-thing-not-destroyed-at-pearl-harbor-c73b287a719 https://medium.com/war-stories/the-one-key-thing-not-destroy... [4] https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1601&context=nwc-review https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl...

Maursault 4y ago

> the Imperial Japanese Navy was able to give the US Navy a serious run for their money. Sure, but not before taking out half the US Navy's battle fleet and leaving them out of commission for nearly half a year. Eventually, most damaged vessels were returned to service, but with escorts needed in the Atlantic, the Fleet was spread thin facing an opponent with more battleships with better torpedos, more carriers with better trained pilots flying (in a lot of ways) superior aircraft. Against the advice and strong objection of many high ranking naval officers, President Roosevelt's "eggs in one basket"-strategy ordering the Fleet to and to remain at Pearl Harbor as a show of force was a disastrous blunder that ultimately ensured the US would be dragged into the War under-prepared. Had Roosevelt not subsequently ordered Yamamoto taken out in 1943, the Pacific may very well have been lost.