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I look forward to seeing if any of the dire predictions from Apple fanboys who once vehemently opposed this sort of thing will come true. Will confused proverb

I look forward to seeing if any of the dire predictions from Apple fanboys who once vehemently opposed this sort of thing will come true. Will confused proverbial grandmothers get tricked into using firefox and then pwned by scammers? Will everybody abandon Safari and give Google a total browser monopoly? Guess we'll find out!

snailmailman 4y ago
My “confused proverbial grandmother” has already been tricked away from using safari. She does all of her web browsing through the Google app. Not the Google Chrome app. The Google app. :facepalm: I’ve tried to explain why this isn’t necessary but as far as she knows, google is the internet. And I cannot say anything to convince her otherwise. After all, every search in safari will re-advertise to her “hey you should be doing this in the google app” and she will click the button without even thinking.
- twobitshifter 4y ago
  My wife seems to only use the Google app as well. The G app has a confusing multiple back button design. The normal safari back button takes you back to Google homepage and the other back button iPad the bottom in your history. Whenever she shows me something in the Google App I always pick the wrong one.
- echelon 4y ago
  I'd like to take a moment to appreciate how we're afraid of which search interface Grandma uses. A hundred years ago, we'd be worried about getting knifed by strangers, bear maulings, starving to death, being homeless, eating food laced with botulism and lead, influenza, tuberculosis, diphtheria ... Things are pretty good.
  - ultrarunner 4y ago
    To be fair, I think the origin of the worry may be that the elderly and less technically inclined are prone to being taken advantage of (rightly or wrongly). You're very correct that things are better than ever, as it were, but vulnerability seems to have endured in some ways.
- gnicholas 4y ago
  Just like mine, who also accesses her photos by unlocking her phone, going to the camera app, and then to her photo roll. She never goes to the Photos app directly.
vehemenz 4y ago
I don't make the connection between "Apple fanboys" and preventing a Chrome monopoly. Surely one's opposition to a monopoly is independent of one's choice of operating system. But yes, most likely this will result in a Chrome monopoly.
- The_Colonel 4y ago
  It's just a strange notion that we will fight google monopoly by forcing people to use Safari.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - vehemenz 4y ago
    It would be strange to force Apple to allow its competitors to establish footholds on their own platform, against their will, only for a Chrome monopoly to emerge months later. A web monoculture will be harder to undo than enacting smarter antitrust legislation.
    - stale2002 4y ago
      > to establish footholds on their own platform, against their will Well that's because the phones don't belong to Apple. Instead, once a consumer purchases it, the phones belong to the user, who should be allowed to do what they want with their own property.
someNameIG 4y ago
On macOS where you can get the full Chrome experience Safari is still dominant with 60+% marketshare. I presume it will be the same for iOS.
- LarryMullins 4y ago
  Yes I think so. I predict that Apple will stop neglecting Safari now that they're forced to compete, and also that most users will stick with the default anyway.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Yes because of the great choice of browsers on Android, companies of all sizes are eschewing native apps and telling Android users just to use their website. On the other hand they are being forced to create apps for iOS. Oh wait. That’s not happening at all.
    - LarryMullins 4y ago
      On Google's android, everybody uses Google's browser. On Apple's iOS, most everybody will use Apple's browser.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        What does that have to do with the narrative that PWAs are a great alternative on Android yet no company seems to take advantage of the fact and they still all create an iOS, Android and web app?
      - dmitriid 4y ago
        That's why Google's apps ask you in which browser to open links, with Chrome being the first, and default, choice. And conveniently "forgetting" the user choice. Don't forget about Google search which will push Chrome every chance it has. And Youtube.
        4y ago
mrtksn 4y ago
> Will everybody abandon Safari and give Google a total browser monopoly This one is scary. People who don't know history like to think that IE was a backward browser and MS forced it upon people but what actually happened is that IE was very innovative until Microsoft diverged from the standards and lock people into it. When the ecosystem(websites) integrates enough that your platform(the browser) is the only way to run all that(through Google services for Chrome?), they stop innovating and start monetising. "Works with Chrome" is the new IE, not Safari.
- warning26 4y ago
  Sure, but forcing people to use Safari against their will isn't the right way to approach that problem. If Google is indeed leveraging their market position in an anticompetitive way to push Chrome, then they should be stopped from doing that.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    They surely can get a few billions of a fine in 10 years.
- nicoburns 4y ago
  The difference being that Chrome is open source (ok fine, Chrome is closed source but the important parts like the rendering engine are open source as Chromium). So they can't lock anyone into anything. If they try that they'll just get forked. Indeed we already have Edge as a well-maintained fork. Which isn't to say that Safari and especially Firefox aren't important drivers of competition. But the situation is nothing like the situation with IE.
  - mrtksn 4y ago
    Of course they can, it's about the marketshare and not the code. They can make some part of the browser running in their cloud services and no matter how much you look into the Chromium code the websites which support this will run in Chrome only. Why would websites support this? Well, it can provide good rankings in search or some other goodie like speeding up the loading times through Google CDN or something and works for %90 of the people(because they use Chrome). Once enough websites integrate this, it's over.
luckylion 4y ago
Don't forget that batteries will drain immediately, another often-stated argument for why Safari needs to be the only available browser.
- Spivak 4y ago
  I don't know if that's a good reason but it's definitely a true reason. Chrome on Android devours power. The thing people are worried about is being forced to use Chrome and Chrome being a worse experience than Safari. If web developers en masse say "oh thank god finally we can drop support for Safari" then we're in a worse situation for everyone involved. We've done nothing but trade a lack of choice for a different lack of choice and ensured that the already dim situation for web apps being ported to non-Chrome browsers will get even worse.
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Would Safari on Android (and with the same features) eat less battery though? I agree in general regarding it being better if multiple engines are available. On the other hand, when I build something, and I'm developing it on Firefox, it usually just works on chromium-based Browsers. Safari tends to be the odd one out that has some weird behavior, although it's much less common and much less bad than it was in the IE days. Also: not having to buy a Mac every few years just so I can test things in Safari sounds sweet, too. Web developers wouldn't drop support for Safari as long as a significant amount of users use it (and especially not if those users are premium users, which they tend to be: higher disposable income, better trained to pay for things etc), so I don't think that's an actual risk. At least for anything I'm involved with: we'll drop Firefox before we drop Safari, and we pretty much keep Firefox only because some developers and some PMs are using it.
    - kitsunesoba 4y ago
      > Would Safari on Android (and with the same features) eat less battery though? Yes, probably. WebKit browsers on other platforms like GNOME Web/Epiphany on Linux is easier on battery than Chrome or Firefox. WebKit is generally speaking more efficient than Blink and Gecko.
crazygringo 4y ago
That is a total strawman, and please don't use the perjorative term "fanboys". Not many Apple fans have ever defended Apple's exclusivity on the browser engine. It's long been an annoyance, honestly. But it also has never had anything to do with scamming grandmothers. That's always been an argument for not allowing arbitrary untrusted app downloads and/or 3rd party app stores. Nothing to do with browser engines, where Apple's (weak) argument has always been about the risk of unknown browser vulnerabilities allowing malicious code to escape the app sandbox. And if iOS browser share winds up mirroring macOS browser share, then it'll go to about 2/3 Chrome.
dang 4y ago
Can you please not post in the flamewar style? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

snailmailman 4y ago

My “confused proverbial grandmother” has already been tricked away from using safari. She does all of her web browsing through the Google app. Not the Google Chrome app. The Google app. :facepalm: I’ve tried to explain why this isn’t necessary but as far as she knows, google is the internet. And I cannot say anything to convince her otherwise. After all, every search in safari will re-advertise to her “hey you should be doing this in the google app” and she will click the button without even thinking.

twobitshifter 4y ago
My wife seems to only use the Google app as well. The G app has a confusing multiple back button design. The normal safari back button takes you back to Google homepage and the other back button iPad the bottom in your history. Whenever she shows me something in the Google App I always pick the wrong one.
echelon 4y ago
I'd like to take a moment to appreciate how we're afraid of which search interface Grandma uses. A hundred years ago, we'd be worried about getting knifed by strangers, bear maulings, starving to death, being homeless, eating food laced with botulism and lead, influenza, tuberculosis, diphtheria ... Things are pretty good.
- ultrarunner 4y ago
  To be fair, I think the origin of the worry may be that the elderly and less technically inclined are prone to being taken advantage of (rightly or wrongly). You're very correct that things are better than ever, as it were, but vulnerability seems to have endured in some ways.
gnicholas 4y ago
Just like mine, who also accesses her photos by unlocking her phone, going to the camera app, and then to her photo roll. She never goes to the Photos app directly.

vehemenz 4y ago

I don't make the connection between "Apple fanboys" and preventing a Chrome monopoly. Surely one's opposition to a monopoly is independent of one's choice of operating system. But yes, most likely this will result in a Chrome monopoly.

The_Colonel 4y ago
It's just a strange notion that we will fight google monopoly by forcing people to use Safari.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- vehemenz 4y ago
  It would be strange to force Apple to allow its competitors to establish footholds on their own platform, against their will, only for a Chrome monopoly to emerge months later. A web monoculture will be harder to undo than enacting smarter antitrust legislation.
  - stale2002 4y ago
    > to establish footholds on their own platform, against their will Well that's because the phones don't belong to Apple. Instead, once a consumer purchases it, the phones belong to the user, who should be allowed to do what they want with their own property.

someNameIG 4y ago

On macOS where you can get the full Chrome experience Safari is still dominant with 60+% marketshare. I presume it will be the same for iOS.

LarryMullins 4y ago
Yes I think so. I predict that Apple will stop neglecting Safari now that they're forced to compete, and also that most users will stick with the default anyway.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes because of the great choice of browsers on Android, companies of all sizes are eschewing native apps and telling Android users just to use their website. On the other hand they are being forced to create apps for iOS. Oh wait. That’s not happening at all.
  - LarryMullins 4y ago
    On Google's android, everybody uses Google's browser. On Apple's iOS, most everybody will use Apple's browser.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      What does that have to do with the narrative that PWAs are a great alternative on Android yet no company seems to take advantage of the fact and they still all create an iOS, Android and web app?
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      That's why Google's apps ask you in which browser to open links, with Chrome being the first, and default, choice. And conveniently "forgetting" the user choice. Don't forget about Google search which will push Chrome every chance it has. And Youtube.
      - 4y ago

mrtksn 4y ago

> Will everybody abandon Safari and give Google a total browser monopoly This one is scary. People who don't know history like to think that IE was a backward browser and MS forced it upon people but what actually happened is that IE was very innovative until Microsoft diverged from the standards and lock people into it. When the ecosystem(websites) integrates enough that your platform(the browser) is the only way to run all that(through Google services for Chrome?), they stop innovating and start monetising. "Works with Chrome" is the new IE, not Safari.

warning26 4y ago
Sure, but forcing people to use Safari against their will isn't the right way to approach that problem. If Google is indeed leveraging their market position in an anticompetitive way to push Chrome, then they should be stopped from doing that.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  They surely can get a few billions of a fine in 10 years.
nicoburns 4y ago
The difference being that Chrome is open source (ok fine, Chrome is closed source but the important parts like the rendering engine are open source as Chromium). So they can't lock anyone into anything. If they try that they'll just get forked. Indeed we already have Edge as a well-maintained fork. Which isn't to say that Safari and especially Firefox aren't important drivers of competition. But the situation is nothing like the situation with IE.
- mrtksn 4y ago
  Of course they can, it's about the marketshare and not the code. They can make some part of the browser running in their cloud services and no matter how much you look into the Chromium code the websites which support this will run in Chrome only. Why would websites support this? Well, it can provide good rankings in search or some other goodie like speeding up the loading times through Google CDN or something and works for %90 of the people(because they use Chrome). Once enough websites integrate this, it's over.

luckylion 4y ago

Don't forget that batteries will drain immediately, another often-stated argument for why Safari needs to be the only available browser.

Spivak 4y ago
I don't know if that's a good reason but it's definitely a true reason. Chrome on Android devours power. The thing people are worried about is being forced to use Chrome and Chrome being a worse experience than Safari. If web developers en masse say "oh thank god finally we can drop support for Safari" then we're in a worse situation for everyone involved. We've done nothing but trade a lack of choice for a different lack of choice and ensured that the already dim situation for web apps being ported to non-Chrome browsers will get even worse.
- luckylion 4y ago
  Would Safari on Android (and with the same features) eat less battery though? I agree in general regarding it being better if multiple engines are available. On the other hand, when I build something, and I'm developing it on Firefox, it usually just works on chromium-based Browsers. Safari tends to be the odd one out that has some weird behavior, although it's much less common and much less bad than it was in the IE days. Also: not having to buy a Mac every few years just so I can test things in Safari sounds sweet, too. Web developers wouldn't drop support for Safari as long as a significant amount of users use it (and especially not if those users are premium users, which they tend to be: higher disposable income, better trained to pay for things etc), so I don't think that's an actual risk. At least for anything I'm involved with: we'll drop Firefox before we drop Safari, and we pretty much keep Firefox only because some developers and some PMs are using it.
  - kitsunesoba 4y ago
    > Would Safari on Android (and with the same features) eat less battery though? Yes, probably. WebKit browsers on other platforms like GNOME Web/Epiphany on Linux is easier on battery than Chrome or Firefox. WebKit is generally speaking more efficient than Blink and Gecko.

crazygringo 4y ago

That is a total strawman, and please don't use the perjorative term "fanboys". Not many Apple fans have ever defended Apple's exclusivity on the browser engine. It's long been an annoyance, honestly. But it also has never had anything to do with scamming grandmothers. That's always been an argument for not allowing arbitrary untrusted app downloads and/or 3rd party app stores. Nothing to do with browser engines, where Apple's (weak) argument has always been about the risk of unknown browser vulnerabilities allowing malicious code to escape the app sandbox. And if iOS browser share winds up mirroring macOS browser share, then it'll go to about 2/3 Chrome.

dang 4y ago

Can you please not post in the flamewar style? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html