4 ms·

It feels like we’re due for a “big reset”, but I doubt it’ll be aligned with VC interests. They need labor more than we need those companies. Americans should p

by eh9 4y ago

It feels like we’re due for a “big reset”, but I doubt it’ll be aligned with VC interests. They need labor more than we need those companies. Americans should pick up a French history book.

ch4s3 4y ago
I'm not sure I see anything in French history I'd particularly want to emulate. The story of the French Revolution which I assume you're referring to is one of senseless barbarism and the old elites ending up back on top at the end anyway. The drownings at Nantes are among the most awful things to happen in Europe prior to WWII. As for modern France and their propensity for rioting over minor labor disputes, who wants that either? Sure a narrow slice of the population gets early retirement but the youth unemployment rate is 20% and it is increasingly hard there to get onto a career ladder that would afford you an early retirement.
- capableweb 4y ago
  Sometimes you have to upset some people in order to make the world better. I for one is happy about previous labor movements, because I like weekends and I dislike child-labor. Without labor movements, unions and sometimes riots, everyone (below upper-class) would have it much worse off.
  - nradov 4y ago
    Do you like having young workers taxed at high rates to subsidize pensions for 62 year olds? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64463330 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64463330
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    My point is that the French are effectively pulling up the ladder and younger people there are going to be stuck with a bill and none of the benefits. It's all well and good to credit the end of child labor in the US to unions, even though it was the progressive movement generally that ended child labor and not unions, but whatever. That said, the American union movement was a powerful force FOR segregation and actually caused a real drop in wages for black workers in northern cities in the 1910s and 1920s, so I think it's important to be honest about the whole history.
- eschaton 4y ago
  With “read French history” they’re not saying French history should be emulated, they’re saying it should be treated as a cautionary tale: Those at the bottom can only be pushed so far before they start building guillotine.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    Yes, but ultimately the reign of terror killed more Sans-culottes than nobles which is the part people often leave out.
    - polygamous_bat 4y ago
      Is that based on absolute number or percentage?
      - ch4s3 4y ago
        It's impossible to really know, the official number of death sentences was only around 16k, but another 10k died in prison. However out in the departments there was a lot of random killing like in the drownings in Nantes. At various points anyone accused by anyone of selling anything at an unfair price was executed, and it was often even more arbitrary. This chaos caused a lot of poor people to simply stare to death which lead to Paris sending out "revolutionary armies" to "requisition" grain which resulted in a lot of farmers being summarily killed. Keeping score on a class basis is beside the point and just gross.
- 0x457 4y ago
  > As for modern France and their propensity for rioting over minor labor disputes, who wants that either? well, that's the only way to deliver the message, so yeah, I want that.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    Really? The end result in France is that the young are chronically unemployed to the tune of 20% and will never have the luxury of early retirement, all so the retirement age won't be raised now.
    - 0x457 4y ago
      Silly that you just take a look at the recent events instead of things as whole. In France, I can go to lunch and not think about work. Here, I have to explain that "no, I won't eat lunch during this meaningless meeting to save time" every time I've invited to a meeting during lunch.
      - ch4s3 4y ago
        I wouldn't say that's representative of the US in general. I regularly take an hour for lunch. And, those benefits in France only apply to CDI employees if I'm not mistaken, and the percentage of employees who are CDD seem to be rising yoy while youth unemployment is also very high. It seems to be a lot easier to get onto the career ladder in the US.
- sofixa 4y ago
  > The story of the French Revolution which I assume you're referring to is one of senseless barbarism and the old elites ending up back on top at the end anyway. Some parts of the old elites ended up kind of on top at the end anyway, however in a drastically different situation - citizens had rights and power at the top came from below, not above (divine right was no longer a thing). So massive difference regardless of the title of the person on top.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    Sure, but they could have gotten that without all of the wars, reign of terror, and general horribleness of the revolution.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      Like how exactly? If they had gotten crazy luck with a benevolent king that decided to bestow them rights? I'm struggling to think of a case where subjects became citizens with rights without either violence, threat of violence, or the sovereign getting scared of violence elsewhere. The French Revolution made many of the liberal reforms across Europe possible precisely because many rulers were deathly afraid of getting guillotined.
      - ch4s3 4y ago
        The reign of terror and wars happened after most of the nobility voluntarily gave up their hereditary rights. Even after the storming of the Bastille there had been very little real violence.
        sofixa 4y ago
        This is some weird revisionism. The Reign of Terror was until the Fall of Robespierre, July 1794. The Armée des Émigrés was still going strong and represented nobles actively fighting with France's enemies to destroy the revolutionary regime. The Vendée uprising was facing brutal suppression at the same time, but also existed and had local nobles participating. Voluntarily is a massive stretch. Even more so when you consider that many that returned after the Restauration tried to get "their" lands and titles back - so it was only the threat of violence that made them abandon everything and run.

by eh9 4y ago

It feels like we’re due for a “big reset”, but I doubt it’ll be aligned with VC interests. They need labor more than we need those companies. Americans should pick up a French history book.

ch4s3 4y ago

I'm not sure I see anything in French history I'd particularly want to emulate. The story of the French Revolution which I assume you're referring to is one of senseless barbarism and the old elites ending up back on top at the end anyway. The drownings at Nantes are among the most awful things to happen in Europe prior to WWII. As for modern France and their propensity for rioting over minor labor disputes, who wants that either? Sure a narrow slice of the population gets early retirement but the youth unemployment rate is 20% and it is increasingly hard there to get onto a career ladder that would afford you an early retirement.

capableweb 4y ago
Sometimes you have to upset some people in order to make the world better. I for one is happy about previous labor movements, because I like weekends and I dislike child-labor. Without labor movements, unions and sometimes riots, everyone (below upper-class) would have it much worse off.
- nradov 4y ago
  Do you like having young workers taxed at high rates to subsidize pensions for 62 year olds? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64463330 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64463330
- ch4s3 4y ago
  My point is that the French are effectively pulling up the ladder and younger people there are going to be stuck with a bill and none of the benefits. It's all well and good to credit the end of child labor in the US to unions, even though it was the progressive movement generally that ended child labor and not unions, but whatever. That said, the American union movement was a powerful force FOR segregation and actually caused a real drop in wages for black workers in northern cities in the 1910s and 1920s, so I think it's important to be honest about the whole history.
eschaton 4y ago
With “read French history” they’re not saying French history should be emulated, they’re saying it should be treated as a cautionary tale: Those at the bottom can only be pushed so far before they start building guillotine.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Yes, but ultimately the reign of terror killed more Sans-culottes than nobles which is the part people often leave out.
  - polygamous_bat 4y ago
    Is that based on absolute number or percentage?
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      It's impossible to really know, the official number of death sentences was only around 16k, but another 10k died in prison. However out in the departments there was a lot of random killing like in the drownings in Nantes. At various points anyone accused by anyone of selling anything at an unfair price was executed, and it was often even more arbitrary. This chaos caused a lot of poor people to simply stare to death which lead to Paris sending out "revolutionary armies" to "requisition" grain which resulted in a lot of farmers being summarily killed. Keeping score on a class basis is beside the point and just gross.
0x457 4y ago
> As for modern France and their propensity for rioting over minor labor disputes, who wants that either? well, that's the only way to deliver the message, so yeah, I want that.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Really? The end result in France is that the young are chronically unemployed to the tune of 20% and will never have the luxury of early retirement, all so the retirement age won't be raised now.
  - 0x457 4y ago
    Silly that you just take a look at the recent events instead of things as whole. In France, I can go to lunch and not think about work. Here, I have to explain that "no, I won't eat lunch during this meaningless meeting to save time" every time I've invited to a meeting during lunch.
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      I wouldn't say that's representative of the US in general. I regularly take an hour for lunch. And, those benefits in France only apply to CDI employees if I'm not mistaken, and the percentage of employees who are CDD seem to be rising yoy while youth unemployment is also very high. It seems to be a lot easier to get onto the career ladder in the US.
sofixa 4y ago
> The story of the French Revolution which I assume you're referring to is one of senseless barbarism and the old elites ending up back on top at the end anyway. Some parts of the old elites ended up kind of on top at the end anyway, however in a drastically different situation - citizens had rights and power at the top came from below, not above (divine right was no longer a thing). So massive difference regardless of the title of the person on top.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Sure, but they could have gotten that without all of the wars, reign of terror, and general horribleness of the revolution.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    Like how exactly? If they had gotten crazy luck with a benevolent king that decided to bestow them rights? I'm struggling to think of a case where subjects became citizens with rights without either violence, threat of violence, or the sovereign getting scared of violence elsewhere. The French Revolution made many of the liberal reforms across Europe possible precisely because many rulers were deathly afraid of getting guillotined.
    - ch4s3 4y ago
      The reign of terror and wars happened after most of the nobility voluntarily gave up their hereditary rights. Even after the storming of the Bastille there had been very little real violence.
      - sofixa 4y ago
        This is some weird revisionism. The Reign of Terror was until the Fall of Robespierre, July 1794. The Armée des Émigrés was still going strong and represented nobles actively fighting with France's enemies to destroy the revolutionary regime. The Vendée uprising was facing brutal suppression at the same time, but also existed and had local nobles participating. Voluntarily is a massive stretch. Even more so when you consider that many that returned after the Restauration tried to get "their" lands and titles back - so it was only the threat of violence that made them abandon everything and run.