7 ms·

This is such a "ugh" topic. Of course it's kind of absurd to be like "Write me an essay on how Woke you are", but it's the inevitable result of pretty low quali

This is such a "ugh" topic. Of course it's kind of absurd to be like "Write me an essay on how Woke you are", but it's the inevitable result of pretty low quality individuals trying to solve a real problem. Academia has obviously been historically discriminatory, and due to the massive problems with the structure of US universities it still has all sorts of problems. The way to fix that is obviously to bring in senior leadership who have experience and understanding of the myriad complex issues facing academia today and who can create a series of changes to tackle some of the systemic underlying issues which have embedded a monoculture in most institutions. Actually doing that is really difficult though, and challenges a series of power structures that are well embedded and aren't going to change. Senior leadership at universities answer to donors, not junior staff. So there's a push to change, but it's not going to change? What do you do? You cover your ass by making sure you meticulously document just exactly how you are making changes so you can point to stuff when people realise that absolutely nothing is changing. You say to your woke alumni "look at the great initiatives" and you say to your non-woke alumni "Psstt... I think we've got a spare space for your 85 IQ grandson"

ergonaught 4y ago
I was asked to describe the diversity within my private life during a job interview last year. It was a relatively lower end position, not even vaguely academic, and neither the role nor the company have any particular applicability to "diversity".
- psychlops 4y ago
  That seems like the greatest question to get. One could spin all sorts of fantasies and talk for hours...
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  Is it illegal to lie on these sorts of questions? Like, you could say you're gay, married to an indigenous trans man raising 3 URM children you've adopted. All of these things are illegal to use in hiring decisions, so the veracity of your answers would only matter if the company was engaged in unlawful hiring practices.
  - throwawaysleep 4y ago
    Exactly. Just lie about this in whatever way will get you the job. Truths do not belong in the hiring process.
  - goodSteveramos 4y ago
    yes. Its illegal racial discrimination. If white people actually called the bluff of civil rights by suing on these grounds the ruling class would be forced to either explicitly add anti-white discrimination to the law or stop their anti-white policies.
    - freejazz 4y ago
      Sovereign-man levels of understanding of the US legal system and governmental processes here
      - goodSteveramos 4y ago
        Companies basically never get forced to hire a white person to make it more diverse even if doing so would. These laws are not uniformly applied. Understand that.
bushbaba 4y ago
The issue with DEI is that it tries to addresses discrimination with MORE discrimination
- kevingadd 4y ago
  While some DEI policies are arguably discriminatory, many are not. If you know that the general population is 20% race A, 10% race B, 30% race C, and yet your admissions are only pulling in 40% race C, 5% race B and 55% race A, you know something is wrong. Policies designed to keep your admissions closer to the general population would not count as discrimination because if everything is functioning correctly your distribution is going to at least resemble the gen pop distribution. Obviously it will never be a perfect fit, because various factors like location, education etc will influence your hiring pool. A lot of people insist that trying to get your metrics to match reality is discrimination because they think it means someone who "doesn't deserve it" will get hired instead of them. The reality is that a biased pipeline might exclude you too, regardless of your gender or skin color, because a biased pipeline is probably filled with things like nepotism, people blackballing candidates off of Vibes(tm), hiring based on appearance, etc. For every time biased hiring benefits you, it probably hurt you 3 times and you might not have noticed. The reality is that if you look at the raw DEI metrics for most large corporations they do not even vaguely resemble the general population. There's no rational excuse for that, you have to do something.
  - gray_-_wolf 4y ago
    > If you know that the general population is 20% race A, 10% race B, 30% race C, and yet your admissions are only pulling in 40% race C, 5% race B and 55% race A, you know something is wrong. Doesn't this ignore the fact that there actually might be biological differences between various races of humans? I mean, aren't most top runners black? I don't follow this closely, but it does seem there is bigger percentage of black people compared to general population. Isn't the fair way to focus on equal opportunities, not outcomes? Give everyone the chance, but pick based on objective criteria (ideally in a blind way)?
    - 4y ago
remarkEon 4y ago
>The way to fix that is obviously to bring in senior leadership No. No, my goodness no. The way to fix that isn't to continue to expand an already bloated bureaucracy that is uninterested in actual intellectual development. The way to fix it is to blow up the university system itself in this country.
christkv 4y ago
Does this mean they will increase the representation of non leftist in academia because universities are starting to become completely unrepresentative of the populations at large and with this disconnect will come their irrelevance.
zozbot234 4y ago
> Academia has obviously been historically discriminatory Academia may have been historically discriminatory, but their biggest problem today is a pipeline problem. K-12 education, and especially public K-12 education, is not just historically discriminatory but has very real, ongoing discrimination against BIPOC minorities, and against female students' success in STEM subjects. That's what really needs to be addressed head-on, DEI is pointless window dressing.
WkndTriathlete 4y ago
> Academia has obviously been historically discriminatory, and due to the massive problems with the structure of US universities it still has all sorts of problems. Which problems, in particular? At the big land grant school I attended in the 1990s minority representation in classes and teaching positions exceeded their demographic representation in the surrounding area. Fast-forward 30 years and the same is true at the big school my kid is attending now with the notable exception of one minority.

ergonaught 4y ago

I was asked to describe the diversity within my private life during a job interview last year. It was a relatively lower end position, not even vaguely academic, and neither the role nor the company have any particular applicability to "diversity".

psychlops 4y ago
That seems like the greatest question to get. One could spin all sorts of fantasies and talk for hours...
Manuel_D 4y ago
Is it illegal to lie on these sorts of questions? Like, you could say you're gay, married to an indigenous trans man raising 3 URM children you've adopted. All of these things are illegal to use in hiring decisions, so the veracity of your answers would only matter if the company was engaged in unlawful hiring practices.
- throwawaysleep 4y ago
  Exactly. Just lie about this in whatever way will get you the job. Truths do not belong in the hiring process.
- goodSteveramos 4y ago
  yes. Its illegal racial discrimination. If white people actually called the bluff of civil rights by suing on these grounds the ruling class would be forced to either explicitly add anti-white discrimination to the law or stop their anti-white policies.
  - freejazz 4y ago
    Sovereign-man levels of understanding of the US legal system and governmental processes here
    - goodSteveramos 4y ago
      Companies basically never get forced to hire a white person to make it more diverse even if doing so would. These laws are not uniformly applied. Understand that.

bushbaba 4y ago

The issue with DEI is that it tries to addresses discrimination with MORE discrimination

kevingadd 4y ago
While some DEI policies are arguably discriminatory, many are not. If you know that the general population is 20% race A, 10% race B, 30% race C, and yet your admissions are only pulling in 40% race C, 5% race B and 55% race A, you know something is wrong. Policies designed to keep your admissions closer to the general population would not count as discrimination because if everything is functioning correctly your distribution is going to at least resemble the gen pop distribution. Obviously it will never be a perfect fit, because various factors like location, education etc will influence your hiring pool. A lot of people insist that trying to get your metrics to match reality is discrimination because they think it means someone who "doesn't deserve it" will get hired instead of them. The reality is that a biased pipeline might exclude you too, regardless of your gender or skin color, because a biased pipeline is probably filled with things like nepotism, people blackballing candidates off of Vibes(tm), hiring based on appearance, etc. For every time biased hiring benefits you, it probably hurt you 3 times and you might not have noticed. The reality is that if you look at the raw DEI metrics for most large corporations they do not even vaguely resemble the general population. There's no rational excuse for that, you have to do something.
- gray_-_wolf 4y ago
  > If you know that the general population is 20% race A, 10% race B, 30% race C, and yet your admissions are only pulling in 40% race C, 5% race B and 55% race A, you know something is wrong. Doesn't this ignore the fact that there actually might be biological differences between various races of humans? I mean, aren't most top runners black? I don't follow this closely, but it does seem there is bigger percentage of black people compared to general population. Isn't the fair way to focus on equal opportunities, not outcomes? Give everyone the chance, but pick based on objective criteria (ideally in a blind way)?
  - 4y ago

remarkEon 4y ago

>The way to fix that is obviously to bring in senior leadership No. No, my goodness no. The way to fix that isn't to continue to expand an already bloated bureaucracy that is uninterested in actual intellectual development. The way to fix it is to blow up the university system itself in this country.

christkv 4y ago

Does this mean they will increase the representation of non leftist in academia because universities are starting to become completely unrepresentative of the populations at large and with this disconnect will come their irrelevance.

zozbot234 4y ago

> Academia has obviously been historically discriminatory Academia may have been historically discriminatory, but their biggest problem today is a pipeline problem. K-12 education, and especially public K-12 education, is not just historically discriminatory but has very real, ongoing discrimination against BIPOC minorities, and against female students' success in STEM subjects. That's what really needs to be addressed head-on, DEI is pointless window dressing.

WkndTriathlete 4y ago

> Academia has obviously been historically discriminatory, and due to the massive problems with the structure of US universities it still has all sorts of problems. Which problems, in particular? At the big land grant school I attended in the 1990s minority representation in classes and teaching positions exceeded their demographic representation in the surrounding area. Fast-forward 30 years and the same is true at the big school my kid is attending now with the notable exception of one minority.