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> Professor Halley believes these innovations are “forced speech and viewpoint discrimination in the First Amendment context” That's an interesting viewpoint a

> Professor Halley believes these innovations are “forced speech and viewpoint discrimination in the First Amendment context” That's an interesting viewpoint and I'm not sure how it squares with a university's First Amendment right to freedom of association. After all, they're at liberty to grant tenure to whomever they think is worthy of it, by their own criteria. If they think that a tenured physics professor's views on getting more people of diverse backgrounds into physics are as important as their views on plasma confinement, who has authority to tell them otherwise? How does such a requirement differ from, say, a requirement that a tenure-track professor have teaching experience (because a prof who can't pass knowledge on is worthless to the university)?

hguant 4y ago
>I'm not sure how it squares with a university's First Amendment right to freedom of association. The short answer from the courts is - if you take money from the federal government, in any way, or have students who take money from the federal government, in any way, or distribute funds from the federal government, in any way, as a corporate entity you lose out on many of the rights entailed to a private citizen.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  No doubt, but I'm unaware of which right would fall under the category "Can't have DEI statements." If anything, government money tends to include more diversity entanglements, not fewer.
  - catiopatio 4y ago
    > I'm unaware of which right would fall under the category "Can't have DEI statements." The first amendment, as originally noted. This is most relevant at public universities, which effectively are the government.
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      And yet the First Amendment doesn't protect a tenured professor from being fired for failing to disclose relevant information (https://www.dailynebraskan.com/news/breaking-news-board-of-regents-votes-to-fire-tenured-professor/article_6d1ef382-726a-11ed-ba8a-732abd5f601e.html https://www.dailynebraskan.com/news/breaking-news-board-of-r...), so I'm not sure where the "compelled speech" protection ends and the requirements of the public university begin. Sounds like one for the courts.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > The first amendment Diversity statements are not viewpoint statements, they are statements of achievements and concrete plans related to organizational goals. The first amendment does not prohibit public employers from asking for, and basing employment decisions, on such statements.
      - catiopatio 4y ago
        DEI statements are absolutely viewpoint statements, and DEI statements are graded according to their adherence to a specific political ideology (and frankly, it’s closer to a religious ideology than a political one). If a public school’s “organization goals” have extended into the realm of advancing DEI political ideology, then the organization is operating outside its remit.
        dragonwriter 4y ago
        > DEI statements are absolutely viewpoint statements, No, they aren’t. They are “how have/would/will you achieve specific goals” statements. Some actual prompts (with institution names removed as a distraction here, if included) [0]: “Applicants should submit a statement explaining how their teaching at the College will contribute to a culture of inclusion and campus diversity.” “A description of how the applicant would contribute to the development of a diverse and inclusive learning community at <institution> through her/his teaching, research, and/or service.” “[…] discuss how the candidate would help achieve <institution>’s goal to attract and graduate more women, Hispanic, and students from other underrepresented groups.” “Qualified candidates should submit […] a diversity statement (describing how you incorporate diversity into your teaching, research, and/or service)” “Pursuant to the college’s vision for cultivating a diverse and inclusive community, the search committee will ask all applicants to address how their past and/or potential contributions might serve to advance <institution>’s commitment to teaching and mentoring young people from a variety of personal experiences, values, and worldviews that arise from differences of culture and circumstance.” > If a public school’s “organization goals” have extended into the realm of advancing DEI political ideology, Diversity is well-established (in cases both supporting and striking down particular diversity policies) as a compelling government interest under; promotion of diversity is not outside the remit of public universities, and, therefore, neither is asking prospective employees both their track record on advancing, and their plans going forward to advance, that interest in their work. [0] examples from: https://cft.vanderbilt.edu/guides-sub-pages/developing-and-writing-a-diversity-statement/ https://cft.vanderbilt.edu/guides-sub-pages/developing-and-w...
  - pookha 4y ago
    Hard for Europeans and some Americans to comprehend this but the US Constitution restricts the government not the other way. The Bill of Rights is meant to protect natural human rights from government systems. US funded academics are bound by it so I suspect these schools would loose in court. And I work for a government research lab and this nonsense is foreign to me.
    - snowpid 4y ago
      offtopic: Do you know about the constitutional reality in any European country? Plus points if it isnt England.
    - elil17 4y ago
      As a practical matter the meaning of the Constitution is determined by the courts. In many, many cases, the Constitution is simply ignored (or, if you're trying to be charitable, "interpreted") in favor of the political convenience of the Supreme Court justices.
  - jl2718 4y ago
    Yes. Government-forced speech is the norm across the history of totalitarian regimes.
  - hguant 4y ago
    The argument is that the University, by requiring a DEI statement/commitment, is creating a situation where it's forcing speech. "Forced Speech" is one of those things the First Amendment/government get tetchy about. It's not a "right to not have DEI statements," it's a "right to not have to say things I don't believe."
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    Compelled speech, at least for public employment. Some states like California also designate political affiliation as a protected class. Can a company mandate that employees take a pledge condemning abortion as immoral and murderous?
- enragedcacti 4y ago
  Is there a threat of legal penalty stopping a person from responding to a DEI prompt with " I wouldn't do anything to promote diversity"? A person doesn't have a right to employment with a university and the interview process is chock full of questions for which not saying the right answer is grounds for elimination. This is of course a separate issue from whether or not the statements are a good idea, but my layman's perusal of supreme court cases around compelled speech found that this almost certainly doesn't rise to the level of a first amendment violation.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
sokoloff 4y ago
This doesn't seem like forced speech at all. Having to recite the Pledge of Allegiance (as I did, or felt like I did) is forced speech. Asking a question as part of an application isn't forcing any specific speech in response. "I think many DEI initiatives are treating a symptom of a genuine problem in society and think that striving to treat every individual in a fair manner and ensuring they feel included in my lab is the best way to ensure that all individuals can best succeed and best contribute to society." is an answer a candidate could freely speak/write.
- catiopatio 4y ago
  The pledge of allegiance is idiotic forced speech, but it’s also meaninglessly anodyne. DEI statements have right and wrong answers, and giving the wrong answer will disqualify you from a job, and ultimately, filter anyone who disagrees out of the academy entirely. That’s very dangerous forced speech. Your example, by the way, would score very low as a DEI statement.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    >Your example, by the way, would score very low as a DEI statement. I would like to see some examples of DEI statements and what scores they received.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    As as student you do not need to state the pledge of allegiance. This case went all the way to the Supreme Court, and the court ruled that students do not have to do it as it's compelled speech. Notable this ruling was made even though the US was in the middle of WWII: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of...
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    Free speech that has consequences is not the same as forced speech or a lack of free speech.
adamsmith143 4y ago
I think we'll find a pendulum effect where schools that lean far into DEI are going to lose out on top students, grants, researchers, etc. They'll have to readjust and swing back into pedagogy because it will be very clear that if e.g. UC Berkeley is training students in DEI and not as much focus is spent on the actual subject matter their students won't start great companies, they won't get PhD's at other top schools, they won't win Nobel Prizes, etc. It's a guaranteed death spiral for them. Meanwhile somewhere like University of Chicago which has made great strides to protect free speech and explicitly prohibits Diversity statements, will likely continue to put out excellent students and research.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  That's going to be the pudding the proof would be in, indeed. It'll be interesting to see what happens if they not only continue to generate excellent students and research but excel because the diversity theories are correct.
  - catiopatio 4y ago
    Why would that be the outcome of explicitly de-incentivizing excellence?
    - shadowgovt 4y ago
      How do DEI programs explicitly de-incentivize excellence?
      - adamsmith143 4y ago
        You no longer hire the best candidate on the merits but rather the one with a sufficiently high DEI score.
        shadowgovt 4y ago
        Isn't "ability to work with people of a diverse background" also one of the merits in a very, very diverse society?
bradleyjg 4y ago
The legal situation is very different between a private university and a state university. Private entities are protected by the First Amendment while state government entities are restricted by it (technically as incorporated by the Fourteenth). Conflating the two situations just leads to confusion.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  The legal situation for private non-profit universities (particularly those without religious affiliation) is quite a bit more complicated than anyone on this thread seems to realize, mostly for statutory reasons. Maybe with the exception of Hillsdale and a few others. I have honestly no idea what SCOTUS would do with these cases absent an agency rule or legislation banning DEI statements, for example, and IMO anyone who claims otherwise is a clerk, a SCOTUS judge, married to a SCOTUS judge, or lying :) I am fairly confident that state legislatures could ban DEI statements at public universities, but I am also fairly confident that this wouldn't actually change anything and that people who think otherwise haven't ever been a serious applicant for a faculty position.

hguant 4y ago

>I'm not sure how it squares with a university's First Amendment right to freedom of association. The short answer from the courts is - if you take money from the federal government, in any way, or have students who take money from the federal government, in any way, or distribute funds from the federal government, in any way, as a corporate entity you lose out on many of the rights entailed to a private citizen.

shadowgovt 4y ago
No doubt, but I'm unaware of which right would fall under the category "Can't have DEI statements." If anything, government money tends to include more diversity entanglements, not fewer.
- catiopatio 4y ago
  > I'm unaware of which right would fall under the category "Can't have DEI statements." The first amendment, as originally noted. This is most relevant at public universities, which effectively are the government.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    And yet the First Amendment doesn't protect a tenured professor from being fired for failing to disclose relevant information (https://www.dailynebraskan.com/news/breaking-news-board-of-regents-votes-to-fire-tenured-professor/article_6d1ef382-726a-11ed-ba8a-732abd5f601e.html https://www.dailynebraskan.com/news/breaking-news-board-of-r...), so I'm not sure where the "compelled speech" protection ends and the requirements of the public university begin. Sounds like one for the courts.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > The first amendment Diversity statements are not viewpoint statements, they are statements of achievements and concrete plans related to organizational goals. The first amendment does not prohibit public employers from asking for, and basing employment decisions, on such statements.
    - catiopatio 4y ago
      DEI statements are absolutely viewpoint statements, and DEI statements are graded according to their adherence to a specific political ideology (and frankly, it’s closer to a religious ideology than a political one). If a public school’s “organization goals” have extended into the realm of advancing DEI political ideology, then the organization is operating outside its remit.
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > DEI statements are absolutely viewpoint statements, No, they aren’t. They are “how have/would/will you achieve specific goals” statements. Some actual prompts (with institution names removed as a distraction here, if included) [0]: “Applicants should submit a statement explaining how their teaching at the College will contribute to a culture of inclusion and campus diversity.” “A description of how the applicant would contribute to the development of a diverse and inclusive learning community at <institution> through her/his teaching, research, and/or service.” “[…] discuss how the candidate would help achieve <institution>’s goal to attract and graduate more women, Hispanic, and students from other underrepresented groups.” “Qualified candidates should submit […] a diversity statement (describing how you incorporate diversity into your teaching, research, and/or service)” “Pursuant to the college’s vision for cultivating a diverse and inclusive community, the search committee will ask all applicants to address how their past and/or potential contributions might serve to advance <institution>’s commitment to teaching and mentoring young people from a variety of personal experiences, values, and worldviews that arise from differences of culture and circumstance.” > If a public school’s “organization goals” have extended into the realm of advancing DEI political ideology, Diversity is well-established (in cases both supporting and striking down particular diversity policies) as a compelling government interest under; promotion of diversity is not outside the remit of public universities, and, therefore, neither is asking prospective employees both their track record on advancing, and their plans going forward to advance, that interest in their work. [0] examples from: https://cft.vanderbilt.edu/guides-sub-pages/developing-and-writing-a-diversity-statement/ https://cft.vanderbilt.edu/guides-sub-pages/developing-and-w...
- pookha 4y ago
  Hard for Europeans and some Americans to comprehend this but the US Constitution restricts the government not the other way. The Bill of Rights is meant to protect natural human rights from government systems. US funded academics are bound by it so I suspect these schools would loose in court. And I work for a government research lab and this nonsense is foreign to me.
  - snowpid 4y ago
    offtopic: Do you know about the constitutional reality in any European country? Plus points if it isnt England.
  - elil17 4y ago
    As a practical matter the meaning of the Constitution is determined by the courts. In many, many cases, the Constitution is simply ignored (or, if you're trying to be charitable, "interpreted") in favor of the political convenience of the Supreme Court justices.
- jl2718 4y ago
  Yes. Government-forced speech is the norm across the history of totalitarian regimes.
- hguant 4y ago
  The argument is that the University, by requiring a DEI statement/commitment, is creating a situation where it's forcing speech. "Forced Speech" is one of those things the First Amendment/government get tetchy about. It's not a "right to not have DEI statements," it's a "right to not have to say things I don't believe."
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  Compelled speech, at least for public employment. Some states like California also designate political affiliation as a protected class. Can a company mandate that employees take a pledge condemning abortion as immoral and murderous?
enragedcacti 4y ago
Is there a threat of legal penalty stopping a person from responding to a DEI prompt with " I wouldn't do anything to promote diversity"? A person doesn't have a right to employment with a university and the interview process is chock full of questions for which not saying the right answer is grounds for elimination. This is of course a separate issue from whether or not the statements are a good idea, but my layman's perusal of supreme court cases around compelled speech found that this almost certainly doesn't rise to the level of a first amendment violation.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

sokoloff 4y ago

This doesn't seem like forced speech at all. Having to recite the Pledge of Allegiance (as I did, or felt like I did) is forced speech. Asking a question as part of an application isn't forcing any specific speech in response. "I think many DEI initiatives are treating a symptom of a genuine problem in society and think that striving to treat every individual in a fair manner and ensuring they feel included in my lab is the best way to ensure that all individuals can best succeed and best contribute to society." is an answer a candidate could freely speak/write.

catiopatio 4y ago
The pledge of allegiance is idiotic forced speech, but it’s also meaninglessly anodyne. DEI statements have right and wrong answers, and giving the wrong answer will disqualify you from a job, and ultimately, filter anyone who disagrees out of the academy entirely. That’s very dangerous forced speech. Your example, by the way, would score very low as a DEI statement.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  >Your example, by the way, would score very low as a DEI statement. I would like to see some examples of DEI statements and what scores they received.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  As as student you do not need to state the pledge of allegiance. This case went all the way to the Supreme Court, and the court ruled that students do not have to do it as it's compelled speech. Notable this ruling was made even though the US was in the middle of WWII: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of...
- sokoloff 4y ago
  Free speech that has consequences is not the same as forced speech or a lack of free speech.

adamsmith143 4y ago

I think we'll find a pendulum effect where schools that lean far into DEI are going to lose out on top students, grants, researchers, etc. They'll have to readjust and swing back into pedagogy because it will be very clear that if e.g. UC Berkeley is training students in DEI and not as much focus is spent on the actual subject matter their students won't start great companies, they won't get PhD's at other top schools, they won't win Nobel Prizes, etc. It's a guaranteed death spiral for them. Meanwhile somewhere like University of Chicago which has made great strides to protect free speech and explicitly prohibits Diversity statements, will likely continue to put out excellent students and research.

shadowgovt 4y ago
That's going to be the pudding the proof would be in, indeed. It'll be interesting to see what happens if they not only continue to generate excellent students and research but excel because the diversity theories are correct.
- catiopatio 4y ago
  Why would that be the outcome of explicitly de-incentivizing excellence?
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    How do DEI programs explicitly de-incentivize excellence?
    - adamsmith143 4y ago
      You no longer hire the best candidate on the merits but rather the one with a sufficiently high DEI score.
      - shadowgovt 4y ago
        Isn't "ability to work with people of a diverse background" also one of the merits in a very, very diverse society?

bradleyjg 4y ago

The legal situation is very different between a private university and a state university. Private entities are protected by the First Amendment while state government entities are restricted by it (technically as incorporated by the Fourteenth). Conflating the two situations just leads to confusion.

thwayunion 4y ago
The legal situation for private non-profit universities (particularly those without religious affiliation) is quite a bit more complicated than anyone on this thread seems to realize, mostly for statutory reasons. Maybe with the exception of Hillsdale and a few others. I have honestly no idea what SCOTUS would do with these cases absent an agency rule or legislation banning DEI statements, for example, and IMO anyone who claims otherwise is a clerk, a SCOTUS judge, married to a SCOTUS judge, or lying :) I am fairly confident that state legislatures could ban DEI statements at public universities, but I am also fairly confident that this wouldn't actually change anything and that people who think otherwise haven't ever been a serious applicant for a faculty position.