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It's not really the end of the world if shareholders lose a little value in order to enrich the employees. Cuts down on the chance of socialist revolution. > I

It's not really the end of the world if shareholders lose a little value in order to enrich the employees. Cuts down on the chance of socialist revolution. > If they don't actually pay, then they'd be usurping control in a way that is not fair to those paying the equity. From a capitalist point of view. Socialists would argue that shareholders are already usurping the labor of the employees by not paying their fair value.

chii 4y ago
> labor of the employees by not paying their fair value but then you have to question the idea of what fair value is. The market rate is a pretty fair value to use. The argument that the employee's wages are always less than the full market value of the goods/services they produce, thus they must not be paid their fair share, is not correct - what happened to the capital that the employees uses to produce their output (the guaranteed wages are also considered capital in this case)?
- arrosenberg 4y ago
  I'm not actually a socialist, so I have no passion to argue this, but you could make arguments about how the labor markets are constrained by the current rules that favor capital (both in legal and tax treatment), so we don't actually know the fair value of an individual's labor in most markets. Also corporate consolidation has suppressed wages and limited avenues for entrepreneurship, so that further reduces the paths to prosperity for most people. Someone would probably also point out that employee wages are hardly guaranteed given that 49 states are at-will, and Montana has fewer people than the city I live in; virtually all Americans can be laid off tomorrow for any reason other than race or other protected status (and even then, we all know there are ways around those laws). Again, I think capital should get profit in exchange for risk taking and organization, but there is no moral argument that shareholders should continue to rake in record profits while working Americans continue to get squeezed tighter every year. At what point does it become rent?

chii 4y ago

> labor of the employees by not paying their fair value but then you have to question the idea of what fair value is. The market rate is a pretty fair value to use. The argument that the employee's wages are always less than the full market value of the goods/services they produce, thus they must not be paid their fair share, is not correct - what happened to the capital that the employees uses to produce their output (the guaranteed wages are also considered capital in this case)?

arrosenberg 4y ago
I'm not actually a socialist, so I have no passion to argue this, but you could make arguments about how the labor markets are constrained by the current rules that favor capital (both in legal and tax treatment), so we don't actually know the fair value of an individual's labor in most markets. Also corporate consolidation has suppressed wages and limited avenues for entrepreneurship, so that further reduces the paths to prosperity for most people. Someone would probably also point out that employee wages are hardly guaranteed given that 49 states are at-will, and Montana has fewer people than the city I live in; virtually all Americans can be laid off tomorrow for any reason other than race or other protected status (and even then, we all know there are ways around those laws). Again, I think capital should get profit in exchange for risk taking and organization, but there is no moral argument that shareholders should continue to rake in record profits while working Americans continue to get squeezed tighter every year. At what point does it become rent?