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I'm not sure it counts as "evidence" because I can't show it to you, but based on personal introspection, whenever I write something it starts with a barely-lin
by lukev 4y ago
I'm not sure it counts as "evidence" because I can't show it to you, but based on personal introspection, whenever I write something it starts with a barely-linguistic thought I want to communicate that gradually gets expanded into as much prose as is necessary to get across the concept whilst establishing context and defending from the most probable detractors.
I literally never just start writing and then just keep adding words.
- tambourine_man 4y agoIt’s not evidence, sure, but what you describe, the “feel of it” is most of what we have to work with at the moment, unfortunately. But it clearly is not self-evident that intelligence is or isn’t prediction. Nothing is self-evident in a field we know so very little about. That’s my main objection, we should be humble and curious, not dogmatic.
- orwin 4y agoIt's pretty much self-evident when you worked with 3-6 that this isn't how it work. The idea come before the vocalization. Or even when you talk in a foreign language you're semi-competent with.
- tambourine_man 4y agoI’ve spent many years with infants and learned 3 languages aside from my mother tongue. I don’t find it self-evident at all. You’re gonna need to elaborate why you think so if you’re willing to convince someone.
- orwin 4y agoThat the idea form before it's vocalized? A three year old reaching toward any toy, then saying 'mine!'. Stumbling on a specific word, stopping your sentence, then proceed to replace it with a combination of words. Or any time you paraphrase basically.
- tambourine_man 4y agoNot true in my experience. To me, words come first, the idea is a consequence I realize after a few of them have been stringed together. Knowing where the words come from, how “the brain” knows the next one before my conscious self does has always been a mystery to me. I’ve heard Sam Harris describing a similar feeling in his podcast.
- orwin 4y agoYou never paraphrased something despite knowing the exact word? [edit] Or explained high level CS concepts to an undergrad at your school?
- tambourine_man 4y agoSure, but how's that indicative that prediction isn't taking place?
- orwin 4y agoI have the idea before i have thought of the word i would use to express it. Sometimes, i don't even have word to express it, "you know what i mean?". And like i said. Children will often act, then talk. Or seek their words for long period of time, and when you propose a word to help them vocalize, they can accept it or reject it. I have another example. Do you ever have slip of the tongue? You're talking about "yoga", tell yourself while speaking "i really shouldn't say 'yoda' here", and say the word "yoda" anyway? This happened to me a lot when i was younger (my speed of thought is lower those days, i don't think i slipped this way in two or three years). I still think a bit faster than i speak tbh.
- tambourine_man 4y agoAll of that happens to me as well. I just don’t see how it couldn’t be explained by prediction from probability distribution. The fact that you can’t find a word could be that you’re stuck in a Markov chain wall or loop: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34688673 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34688673 The thing is, we just don’t know how any of that work. Our speculation is as good as any.