67 ms·

I do think this is more concerning than it would appear. I think the fact that this became a partisan food fight has forced this position that this wasn't a big

I do think this is more concerning than it would appear. I think the fact that this became a partisan food fight has forced this position that this wasn't a big deal on people who favor Biden. This is really about China since Xi took over. Executing CIA assets in courtyards in front of their colleagues, practicing missile strikes on models of US carriers, the repeated invasion of US airspace, the exercises near Taiwan after Pelosi visit. This is not good, and invading continental US airspace is ratchet up in brazenness. We need to have a national conversation about where this is heading. China under Xi is nothing like China 2000 through 2010. In the last decade some of the biggest China made blockbusters have been glorifying fighting / killing Americans (Wolf Warrior II and The Battle at Lake Changjin) Edit for sources: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie... https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-builds-mockups-us-navy-ships-area-used-missile-target-practice-2021-11-08/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-builds-mockups-us-...

__derek__ 4y ago
Check out the recent book Danger Zone by Hal Brands. I do think there's a growing consensus that this belligerence is a near-term problem even if it's been slow to develop.
- moose_man 4y ago
  Yeah the situation at the moment is very bleak, it's like watching a slow motion train wreck.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  China isn't surrounding the US with its military and making weekly threats.
  - AnimalMuppet 4y ago
    Not making weekly threats to the US, maybe. Does Taiwan count? If not, why not?
    - morpheos137 4y ago
      For starters Taiwan is not the 51st state.
  - __derek__ 4y ago
    FWIW, China's neighbors in Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, and the Philippines don't appear to share your characterization of the situation. Neither do Australia, India, or Indonesia.
    - throw5838465 4y ago
      China has a lot more neighbors: Afghanistan, Bhutan, Cambodia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Myanmar, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia and Tajikistan.
    - binanc 4y ago
      > FWIW, China's neighbors in Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, and the Philippines don't appear to share your characterization of the situation. All those countries have been invaded and/or occupied by the US. The US is the brutal foreign colonizer in asia, not china. China didn't nuke japan, the worst act not only in ww2 but in human history. The US did. > Neither do Australia, India, or Indonesia. Australia is for obvious reasons. India joined the SCO. Notice how nobody talks about "the quad" or indo-pacific anymore? And Indonesia is part of Belt and Road. Australia is historically more of an enemy of India or Indonesia than china is. The fact of the matter is that most asian nations don't want to antagonize the biggest racist bully in the region - the US. Once they get strong enough, things will change. Everything we project onto china, we are guilty of. It's amazing how the white supremacist nation that butchered and brutalized tens of millions of asians are made to be the good guys. If china is such a threat, why don't we let these countries get nuclear weapons. Then they won't need our protection. Oh that's right, we dare not let these countries get nukes because the first target on their list would be the "good guys". Who sanctioned india when india went nuclear? Certainly china right? Nope, it was the "good guys".
mr90210 4y ago
You've got a point. I am not knowledgeable about this topic, but it seems to me that no matter what, the US will always be on a tougher position because any overreaction from them to a provocation could end badly for everybody, and it seems that China is well aware of it, and they play with such fact. As an example: China sends a balloon to the US air space, any bold countermeasure in China's air space / territory means worldwide panic and potential war. The example above is just a simple scenario that I am using to describe the position where the US is at.
- moose_man 4y ago
  I'm more concerned that there hasn't been a comprehensive analysis of where the situation is heading. It's like we're on autopilot without a strategy. If you look at experts on US China relations in the US and China, both sides basically agree we're heading towards war soon. We can't avoid war, if we just mindlessly react and go forward without a real strategy. All our lives depend on getting this right and hopefully steering to a place where we avoid war. It's not even a Cold War, the Cold War had guardrails. There are no guardrails.
  - im3w1l 4y ago
    I think we need to work out a common vision. How would a peaceful, happy and prosperous future for both the West and China look like? How can we cooperate in reaching this? How can we secure buy-in into this vision from the Chinese people? At the same time their needs to be deterrence of course, but I think we are already doing that part.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      All the West needs for peace with China is to stop following the US as it continually threatens China.
    - nradov 4y ago
      What would that common vision look like? The current Chinese leadership sees gaining total control over the first island chain (including Taiwan) as an existential necessity. Western leaders can't allow that. A better solution is to constantly harass, undermine, and isolate China much like we did with the USSR. Apply enough sustained pressure and hopefully the country will eventually collapse into a violent internal revolution.
RajT88 4y ago
Blimey. Those films: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_at_Lake_Changjin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_at_Lake_Changjin > CNN noted that the film was commissioned by the propaganda department of the Chinese Communist Party, while Business Insider and The Economist said that the movie was part of a "main melody" genre of entertainment that praises China, the Chinese Communist Party, and the People's Liberation Army.[53][54][55] It doesn't say whether Wolf Warrior II was commissioned by the propaganda wing, but it stars some of the same actors.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gun:_Maverick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gun:_Maverick
  - moose_man 4y ago
    That movie went way out of its way to obscure what country they going against. It definitely did not say the antagonists were Chinese.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      That movie, like most American military action movies, was done in partnership with the US government, which was given approval on the script. I would ask why Chinese propaganda is painted as oppressive and heavy-handed when we're doing the exact same thing through government programs that are old enough to collect Social Security.
      - moose_man 4y ago
        I didn't call out those movies because the state was involved, it's because they glorified killing and fighting Americans.
      - bee_rider 4y ago
        Those programs are also bad.
pessimizer 4y ago
> the fact that this became a partisan food fight It has not become a partisan food fight. Both parties are whipping up anti-Chinese nationalism in their bases in order to support their next provocation, and the best method to install a belief into those hyperpartisans is to convince them that their counterparts on the other side are opposed to that belief. Republicans and Democrats are both convinced that Democrats and Republicans are dangerously soft on China.
- metabagel 4y ago
  "Republicans and Democrats are both convinced that Democrats and Republicans are dangerously soft on China." Citation needed. For sure, Republicans are doing this.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    Their messaging is so similar that I'm not sure what "this" you're referring to. Are you saying that Republicans are accusing Democrats of being dangerously soft on China, or that Republicans are being dangerously soft on China?
- silverwasthere 4y ago
  We're being dangerously soft on the ceos and shareholders that sent all the money there...

__derek__ 4y ago

Check out the recent book Danger Zone by Hal Brands. I do think there's a growing consensus that this belligerence is a near-term problem even if it's been slow to develop.

moose_man 4y ago
Yeah the situation at the moment is very bleak, it's like watching a slow motion train wreck.
pessimizer 4y ago
China isn't surrounding the US with its military and making weekly threats.
- AnimalMuppet 4y ago
  Not making weekly threats to the US, maybe. Does Taiwan count? If not, why not?
  - morpheos137 4y ago
    For starters Taiwan is not the 51st state.
- __derek__ 4y ago
  FWIW, China's neighbors in Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, and the Philippines don't appear to share your characterization of the situation. Neither do Australia, India, or Indonesia.
  - throw5838465 4y ago
    China has a lot more neighbors: Afghanistan, Bhutan, Cambodia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Myanmar, Nepal, North Korea, Pakistan, Russia and Tajikistan.
  - binanc 4y ago
    > FWIW, China's neighbors in Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, and the Philippines don't appear to share your characterization of the situation. All those countries have been invaded and/or occupied by the US. The US is the brutal foreign colonizer in asia, not china. China didn't nuke japan, the worst act not only in ww2 but in human history. The US did. > Neither do Australia, India, or Indonesia. Australia is for obvious reasons. India joined the SCO. Notice how nobody talks about "the quad" or indo-pacific anymore? And Indonesia is part of Belt and Road. Australia is historically more of an enemy of India or Indonesia than china is. The fact of the matter is that most asian nations don't want to antagonize the biggest racist bully in the region - the US. Once they get strong enough, things will change. Everything we project onto china, we are guilty of. It's amazing how the white supremacist nation that butchered and brutalized tens of millions of asians are made to be the good guys. If china is such a threat, why don't we let these countries get nuclear weapons. Then they won't need our protection. Oh that's right, we dare not let these countries get nukes because the first target on their list would be the "good guys". Who sanctioned india when india went nuclear? Certainly china right? Nope, it was the "good guys".

mr90210 4y ago

You've got a point. I am not knowledgeable about this topic, but it seems to me that no matter what, the US will always be on a tougher position because any overreaction from them to a provocation could end badly for everybody, and it seems that China is well aware of it, and they play with such fact. As an example: China sends a balloon to the US air space, any bold countermeasure in China's air space / territory means worldwide panic and potential war. The example above is just a simple scenario that I am using to describe the position where the US is at.

moose_man 4y ago
I'm more concerned that there hasn't been a comprehensive analysis of where the situation is heading. It's like we're on autopilot without a strategy. If you look at experts on US China relations in the US and China, both sides basically agree we're heading towards war soon. We can't avoid war, if we just mindlessly react and go forward without a real strategy. All our lives depend on getting this right and hopefully steering to a place where we avoid war. It's not even a Cold War, the Cold War had guardrails. There are no guardrails.
- im3w1l 4y ago
  I think we need to work out a common vision. How would a peaceful, happy and prosperous future for both the West and China look like? How can we cooperate in reaching this? How can we secure buy-in into this vision from the Chinese people? At the same time their needs to be deterrence of course, but I think we are already doing that part.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    All the West needs for peace with China is to stop following the US as it continually threatens China.
  - nradov 4y ago
    What would that common vision look like? The current Chinese leadership sees gaining total control over the first island chain (including Taiwan) as an existential necessity. Western leaders can't allow that. A better solution is to constantly harass, undermine, and isolate China much like we did with the USSR. Apply enough sustained pressure and hopefully the country will eventually collapse into a violent internal revolution.

RajT88 4y ago

Blimey. Those films: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_at_Lake_Changjin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Battle_at_Lake_Changjin > CNN noted that the film was commissioned by the propaganda department of the Chinese Communist Party, while Business Insider and The Economist said that the movie was part of a "main melody" genre of entertainment that praises China, the Chinese Communist Party, and the People's Liberation Army.[53][54][55] It doesn't say whether Wolf Warrior II was commissioned by the propaganda wing, but it stars some of the same actors.

pessimizer 4y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gun:_Maverick https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gun:_Maverick
- moose_man 4y ago
  That movie went way out of its way to obscure what country they going against. It definitely did not say the antagonists were Chinese.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    That movie, like most American military action movies, was done in partnership with the US government, which was given approval on the script. I would ask why Chinese propaganda is painted as oppressive and heavy-handed when we're doing the exact same thing through government programs that are old enough to collect Social Security.
    - moose_man 4y ago
      I didn't call out those movies because the state was involved, it's because they glorified killing and fighting Americans.
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      Those programs are also bad.

pessimizer 4y ago

> the fact that this became a partisan food fight It has not become a partisan food fight. Both parties are whipping up anti-Chinese nationalism in their bases in order to support their next provocation, and the best method to install a belief into those hyperpartisans is to convince them that their counterparts on the other side are opposed to that belief. Republicans and Democrats are both convinced that Democrats and Republicans are dangerously soft on China.

metabagel 4y ago
"Republicans and Democrats are both convinced that Democrats and Republicans are dangerously soft on China." Citation needed. For sure, Republicans are doing this.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Their messaging is so similar that I'm not sure what "this" you're referring to. Are you saying that Republicans are accusing Democrats of being dangerously soft on China, or that Republicans are being dangerously soft on China?
silverwasthere 4y ago
We're being dangerously soft on the ceos and shareholders that sent all the money there...