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Am I wrong in thinking that getting your feelings hurt by an AI making an offensive joke is the equivalent of thinking you've been doxxed when a random number g

by causi 4y ago

Am I wrong in thinking that getting your feelings hurt by an AI making an offensive joke is the equivalent of thinking you've been doxxed when a random number generator spits out your phone number?

version_five 4y ago
This is a great analogy! $ seq -w 9999999
- Pyramus 4y ago
  Isn't the purpose of machine learning to learn something, not nothing/randomness?
  - version_five 4y ago
    The point is that whether it's an RNG or language model or just a program printing a list of numbers like I posted, it's just a state machine spitting stuff out, it has no intention. So it's not really productive to get mad at it just because it produced something you don't like. The language model is spitting out random stuff based on the representation it has learned. It doesn't know what it means, nobody is making any kind of value judgement that results in it saying stuff, so why get offended by it? Edit: Because if our adversaries are the products of inanimate and unthinking evolution, we cannot regard the problem in terms of revenge or payback... that would be no different than whipping the ocean for having sunk a ship and drowned its sailors - Stanislaw Lem, The Invincible
    - widowlark 4y ago
      I think it's fair to say that the anger people might feel is probably directed at the creators/owners of the AI, rather than the AI itself
    - crote 4y ago
      That's like saying a book has no intention. It's just a bunch of ink and paper - it's completely neutral! However, the AI may not have been trained in a neutral way, and the person using it may not be using it in a neutral way. If you create an AI product, you are responsible for its output. People aren't mad at the model itself, they are mad at its creators. Why did they create an AI which ends up insulting people and breaking the ToS of the platform it is on?
    - Pyramus 4y ago
      If I understood you correctly your point is AI should be treated as RNG. Here are three models: * A language model that outputs jokes, * A self-driving car model that outputs driving instructions, * An autonomous combat drone model that outputs engagement targets. Where do you draw the line? Where do you start to "get offended"? Just saw your Lem quote: Isn't an AI exactly not "unthinking"? That's the whole purpose of machine learning: to "learn", to recognise patterns, to abstract away, no?
  - pmarreck 4y ago
    The output has an element of randomness however. Regenerating the output will give you a different, albeit similar, answer.
  - djkivi 4y ago
    In that case, instead of Seinfeld, AI should make a show about something.
PartiallyTyped 4y ago
Yes because you are treating a sequence of words the same as a pseudorandom generator. The former has a probability distribution of sequences reflective of the dataset and context whereas the latter is pure random chance assuming input seed is random.
- causi 4y ago
  It's just a program, though. It has no bigotry. You don't punish a machine, you correct it.
  - mcronce 4y ago
    This ban doesn't punish the machine; it doesn't care whether or not it's banned from Twitch. It does two things: * Makes sure the people controlling the machine are incentivized to correct it (not that I think they needed it, but what I think is irrelevant) * Ensures that content that Twitch management doesn't want on their platform, and which is in violation of their TOS, is removed immediately, regardless of the thoughts/actions of the people controlling the machine.
  - DanHulton 4y ago
    Yeah, but you also don't necessarily allow it to continue to broadcast while exhibiting errant behaviour. Your interpretation of this as a "punishment" of the machine isn't necessarily correct, nor the only perspective that's ultimately important here. As far as Twitch is concerned, there's a channel that's breaking TOS, repeatedly. They're not "punishing" the owner of that channel, they're just enforcing the TOS, something the channel owner agreed to when creating their channel.
  - flangola7 4y ago
    OpenAI (which powers this Seinfeld generator) is putting significant resources into preventing it from creating unsafe and antisocial material. Until that is prefected, outside entities like Twitch can use traditional moderation tools, such as the 14 day ban issued in this case.
Levitz 4y ago
As dumb as twitch moderation can be, the issue is that you can't possibly task twitch moderation with knowing to which degree an offensive joke is relevant or not. If an AI is set up to spout something-phobic stuff 24/7 surely they are going to ban that, rather than wondering where is the degree of offensiveness that warrants a ban, they just ban when ToS is breached. At least that's what would make sense, and Twitch moderation is far, FAR from making sense in general, but in this one thing they might be reasonable.
- rysertio 4y ago
  It sounds more like a dumb AI bot was banned by another dumber AI bot.
undersuit 4y ago
Part of Twitch is the social aspect and that includes a process where clips are created and shared from source material. As part of the ban those clips are no longer available because people can share those clips for malicious reasons. Sharing the clips can quickly cross from trolling to targeted harassment. Was the joke super transphobic? Not really. Would getting spammed with hundreds of unique users sending you the clip become transphobic? Yes. A clip of the joke from the banned channel: https://clips.twitch.tv/CalmFrailPlumageShazBotstix-ITcqL0Hh4xGownkE https://clips.twitch.tv/CalmFrailPlumageShazBotstix-ITcqL0Hh...

by causi 4y ago

Am I wrong in thinking that getting your feelings hurt by an AI making an offensive joke is the equivalent of thinking you've been doxxed when a random number generator spits out your phone number?

version_five 4y ago

This is a great analogy! $ seq -w 9999999

Pyramus 4y ago
Isn't the purpose of machine learning to learn something, not nothing/randomness?
- version_five 4y ago
  The point is that whether it's an RNG or language model or just a program printing a list of numbers like I posted, it's just a state machine spitting stuff out, it has no intention. So it's not really productive to get mad at it just because it produced something you don't like. The language model is spitting out random stuff based on the representation it has learned. It doesn't know what it means, nobody is making any kind of value judgement that results in it saying stuff, so why get offended by it? Edit: Because if our adversaries are the products of inanimate and unthinking evolution, we cannot regard the problem in terms of revenge or payback... that would be no different than whipping the ocean for having sunk a ship and drowned its sailors - Stanislaw Lem, The Invincible
  - widowlark 4y ago
    I think it's fair to say that the anger people might feel is probably directed at the creators/owners of the AI, rather than the AI itself
  - crote 4y ago
    That's like saying a book has no intention. It's just a bunch of ink and paper - it's completely neutral! However, the AI may not have been trained in a neutral way, and the person using it may not be using it in a neutral way. If you create an AI product, you are responsible for its output. People aren't mad at the model itself, they are mad at its creators. Why did they create an AI which ends up insulting people and breaking the ToS of the platform it is on?
  - Pyramus 4y ago
    If I understood you correctly your point is AI should be treated as RNG. Here are three models: * A language model that outputs jokes, * A self-driving car model that outputs driving instructions, * An autonomous combat drone model that outputs engagement targets. Where do you draw the line? Where do you start to "get offended"? Just saw your Lem quote: Isn't an AI exactly not "unthinking"? That's the whole purpose of machine learning: to "learn", to recognise patterns, to abstract away, no?
- pmarreck 4y ago
  The output has an element of randomness however. Regenerating the output will give you a different, albeit similar, answer.
- djkivi 4y ago
  In that case, instead of Seinfeld, AI should make a show about something.

PartiallyTyped 4y ago

Yes because you are treating a sequence of words the same as a pseudorandom generator. The former has a probability distribution of sequences reflective of the dataset and context whereas the latter is pure random chance assuming input seed is random.

causi 4y ago
It's just a program, though. It has no bigotry. You don't punish a machine, you correct it.
- mcronce 4y ago
  This ban doesn't punish the machine; it doesn't care whether or not it's banned from Twitch. It does two things: * Makes sure the people controlling the machine are incentivized to correct it (not that I think they needed it, but what I think is irrelevant) * Ensures that content that Twitch management doesn't want on their platform, and which is in violation of their TOS, is removed immediately, regardless of the thoughts/actions of the people controlling the machine.
- DanHulton 4y ago
  Yeah, but you also don't necessarily allow it to continue to broadcast while exhibiting errant behaviour. Your interpretation of this as a "punishment" of the machine isn't necessarily correct, nor the only perspective that's ultimately important here. As far as Twitch is concerned, there's a channel that's breaking TOS, repeatedly. They're not "punishing" the owner of that channel, they're just enforcing the TOS, something the channel owner agreed to when creating their channel.
- flangola7 4y ago
  OpenAI (which powers this Seinfeld generator) is putting significant resources into preventing it from creating unsafe and antisocial material. Until that is prefected, outside entities like Twitch can use traditional moderation tools, such as the 14 day ban issued in this case.

Levitz 4y ago

As dumb as twitch moderation can be, the issue is that you can't possibly task twitch moderation with knowing to which degree an offensive joke is relevant or not. If an AI is set up to spout something-phobic stuff 24/7 surely they are going to ban that, rather than wondering where is the degree of offensiveness that warrants a ban, they just ban when ToS is breached. At least that's what would make sense, and Twitch moderation is far, FAR from making sense in general, but in this one thing they might be reasonable.

rysertio 4y ago
It sounds more like a dumb AI bot was banned by another dumber AI bot.

undersuit 4y ago

Part of Twitch is the social aspect and that includes a process where clips are created and shared from source material. As part of the ban those clips are no longer available because people can share those clips for malicious reasons. Sharing the clips can quickly cross from trolling to targeted harassment. Was the joke super transphobic? Not really. Would getting spammed with hundreds of unique users sending you the clip become transphobic? Yes. A clip of the joke from the banned channel: https://clips.twitch.tv/CalmFrailPlumageShazBotstix-ITcqL0Hh4xGownkE https://clips.twitch.tv/CalmFrailPlumageShazBotstix-ITcqL0Hh...