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On the other hand, if you only emphasize equal access of opportunity you will never reach equal outcomes. White men have centuries of cultural expectations, fam

On the other hand, if you only emphasize equal access of opportunity you will never reach equal outcomes. White men have centuries of cultural expectations, family wealth, and other advantages, and minorities have none of those advantages, and may be only a few decades (if that) removed from illiterate, impoverished inequality. Give those groups equal opportunity and it's unsurprising when an inequality of outcomes is perpetuated, observe that inequality of outcomes long enough and you start to foment the idea that maybe those people aren't actually intrinsically equal. Our office has a similar problem as a woman-owned business... The WBENC seal is valuable for winning bids in the government and aerospace industries, where regulatory measures encourage taking contracts with us over those that are still in the "old boys' club." Are we actually providing more value than our competition? Are we as innovative and sharp as we think we are? Or is much of the work we build together only selected because it satisfies some regulatory checkbox? I don't know, but I'd rather suffer that social strife and doubt for a few decades in my generation, wondering about my own accomplishments and worthiness, than kick the can down the road and leave the inequality unaddressed. I believe that temporarily creating equal outcomes, while temporarily problematic, will be a much faster route towards long-term equality than doing nothing.

hedora 4y ago
Can you name a single place which has equality of opportunity and where black people were somehow still unable to prosper? In California, the equality of outcome groups in Sacramento are trying to lower the educational bar to the federally mandated minimum. The result is that most people reading this with kids in California will use their wealth to supplement public education (or pay for private schools), while people in poorer districts won’t have that option. They already defunded science and art, state wide, and the equity brigade tried to defund high school calculus last year.
jimbokun 4y ago
Why do you think it will stop after a few decades? What if by that point men are doing categorically worse in employment and entrepreneurship than women, and demand their own compensatory programs? Where does it end?
stcroixx 4y ago
Equal outcomes is an evil goal which can only be ultimately achieved through forced labor. Much more humane to just provide equal opportunity to all and then let people decide for themselves what they want to do for a living.
deleted 4y ago
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Manuel_D 4y ago
And yet Asian Americans and Jewish Americans significantly outperform those white men. And in the last several decades, women have outperformed men in university and in the 2010s in the workforce, too. This analysis does not hold up to close scrutiny.
rirze 4y ago
The only thing minorities lack is a proper value system. There are multiple immigrant groups that start from nothing and achieve upper middle-class status in a generation's time. Once we realize, as a society, that what minorities really need is internal support to reform their cultural systems, only then will minorities will empower themselves to do better.
- Animats 4y ago
  There are multiple immigrant groups that start from nothing and achieve upper middle-class status in a generation's time. Irish, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans... In Martin Luther King's day, the line was that all that was needed was equality of opportunity.
  - goatlover 4y ago
    Malcom X also said this and pointed to immigrants As examples to immulate.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > In Martin Luther King's day, the line was that all that was needed was equality of opportunity. If you actually read and/or listen to King's speeches and writings, rather than just passively consume the propaganda image constructed by exactly the forces King railed against, you would know that it wasn't, at least not the way you seem to be thinking. King explicitly saw as necessary radical redistribution to acheive much greater equality of material condition (see, e.g., the “Three Evils” speech); he did not buy into the idea that material conditions that are the outcome of systems of distribution of scarce resources could be cleanly severed from “opportunity”, such that you could have even rough equality of the latter with gross inequality of the former.
- nemothekid 4y ago
  >There are multiple immigrant groups that start from nothing and achieve upper middle-class status in a generation's time You can't compare an immigrant group, which is _most likely_ elite in their home countries (it is very expensive and very difficult to immigrate to the united states), to minorities in America who have seen their family units destroyed as recently as 60 years ago. You can point to the success of Nigerian-Americans; one of, if not the most educated[1] racial group in the US. If you are an immigrant from Nigeria, the second richest country in Africa by GDP, the US as a result of its immigration policies simply selects for the best and brightest. Minorities "lacking a value system" (??), isn't something innate to their culture. It's been a purposeful policy for America for most of it's lifetime. Just look at the Tulsa Race Massacre; it was an incredible destruction of future generational and cultural wealth for the people who you now say "lack a value system". >minorities really need is internal support to reform their cultural systems There are multiple ways to approach this but it tends to be labeled as socialism, woke-ism, CRT, or DEI. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn-t-just-asian-immigrants-who-excel-in-the-u-s- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn...
deleted 4y ago
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hedora 4y ago

Can you name a single place which has equality of opportunity and where black people were somehow still unable to prosper? In California, the equality of outcome groups in Sacramento are trying to lower the educational bar to the federally mandated minimum. The result is that most people reading this with kids in California will use their wealth to supplement public education (or pay for private schools), while people in poorer districts won’t have that option. They already defunded science and art, state wide, and the equity brigade tried to defund high school calculus last year.

jimbokun 4y ago

Why do you think it will stop after a few decades? What if by that point men are doing categorically worse in employment and entrepreneurship than women, and demand their own compensatory programs? Where does it end?

stcroixx 4y ago

Equal outcomes is an evil goal which can only be ultimately achieved through forced labor. Much more humane to just provide equal opportunity to all and then let people decide for themselves what they want to do for a living.

deleted 4y ago

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Manuel_D 4y ago

And yet Asian Americans and Jewish Americans significantly outperform those white men. And in the last several decades, women have outperformed men in university and in the 2010s in the workforce, too. This analysis does not hold up to close scrutiny.

rirze 4y ago

The only thing minorities lack is a proper value system. There are multiple immigrant groups that start from nothing and achieve upper middle-class status in a generation's time. Once we realize, as a society, that what minorities really need is internal support to reform their cultural systems, only then will minorities will empower themselves to do better.

Animats 4y ago
There are multiple immigrant groups that start from nothing and achieve upper middle-class status in a generation's time. Irish, Italians, Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Koreans... In Martin Luther King's day, the line was that all that was needed was equality of opportunity.
- goatlover 4y ago
  Malcom X also said this and pointed to immigrants As examples to immulate.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > In Martin Luther King's day, the line was that all that was needed was equality of opportunity. If you actually read and/or listen to King's speeches and writings, rather than just passively consume the propaganda image constructed by exactly the forces King railed against, you would know that it wasn't, at least not the way you seem to be thinking. King explicitly saw as necessary radical redistribution to acheive much greater equality of material condition (see, e.g., the “Three Evils” speech); he did not buy into the idea that material conditions that are the outcome of systems of distribution of scarce resources could be cleanly severed from “opportunity”, such that you could have even rough equality of the latter with gross inequality of the former.
nemothekid 4y ago
>There are multiple immigrant groups that start from nothing and achieve upper middle-class status in a generation's time You can't compare an immigrant group, which is _most likely_ elite in their home countries (it is very expensive and very difficult to immigrate to the united states), to minorities in America who have seen their family units destroyed as recently as 60 years ago. You can point to the success of Nigerian-Americans; one of, if not the most educated[1] racial group in the US. If you are an immigrant from Nigeria, the second richest country in Africa by GDP, the US as a result of its immigration policies simply selects for the best and brightest. Minorities "lacking a value system" (??), isn't something innate to their culture. It's been a purposeful policy for America for most of it's lifetime. Just look at the Tulsa Race Massacre; it was an incredible destruction of future generational and cultural wealth for the people who you now say "lack a value system". >minorities really need is internal support to reform their cultural systems There are multiple ways to approach this but it tends to be labeled as socialism, woke-ism, CRT, or DEI. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn-t-just-asian-immigrants-who-excel-in-the-u-s- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-10-13/it-isn...

deleted 4y ago

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