5 ms·

Sure, I'll bite. Diversity in the abstract has no intrinsic benefits. A dozen red roses is no more or less beautiful than roses of many colors. A set of heter

by jawns 4y ago

Sure, I'll bite. Diversity in the abstract has no intrinsic benefits. A dozen red roses is no more or less beautiful than roses of many colors. A set of heterogenous things is not intrinsically more valuable than a set of homogenous things. BUT when it comes to diversity of representation, there is a justice angle. My guiding principle is that when the diversity of a workforce does not match the diversity of its surroundings, that is a problem, because it suggests that people are being filtered out for some reason other than their relevant abilities. Maybe that reason is systemic bias, or maybe it's direct bias on the part of the company. But somewhere in the process, there's an injustice taking place. I used to work for a company that was much more white, male, and otherwise homogeneous than the city in which it was located. And the company was worse off for it. There was a lot of groupthink. There was a lot of what I'd call TDD (testosterone-driven development). And people complained about there being a monoculture. The more homogenous the company became, the harder it became to attract qualified people who didn't fit the mold.

zmgsabst 4y ago
> My guiding principle is that when the diversity of a workforce does not match the diversity of its surroundings, that is a problem. The people who talk like this argued that Asians don’t deserve equal admission to Harvard or UNC because there’s “too many”. I think that kind of racism is disgusting — choosing people based on skin color is horrific.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  You’re putting words in parent’s mouth. I personally never heard someone jumping from one to the other, and don’t see the logical bind either.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    UNC and Harvard both argued before the Supreme Court in 2022 that their anti-Asian racism is for “diversity”. A lot of people are dishonest about that, but the people who crow about “diversity” consistently engage in racialized language — and discrimination based on race, such as discrimination against Asians at those universities. (You can see GP works himself around to the racial angle by the end.) I didn’t put any words in GPs mouth: I pointed out he’s using the language of modern bigots, such as those at Harvard and UNC.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      You are commenting on a case that is still open, and while you seem squarely in favor of SFFA, their claims are far from being validated (they’ve been rejected by lower courts up to this point) What I find interesting in particular from those lawsuits: one of the main argument was the representation of Asians being lower than “white” ethnic groups adjusted for selected academic achievements. That basically goes against your thesis, as doing that intentionally would lower diversity.
- marcosdumay 4y ago
  Yes, there exist people that do that. Yet, we are talking about a real barrier for many kinds of people that was suddenly lifted, and people are still making an effort to classify the people that pointed "hey, there was a barrier here" as racist. The rhetoric of this thread is amazing.
  - abduhl 4y ago
    People are not making an effort to classify the people that pointed out that there was a barrier as racist. They are making an effort to classify people that are currently saying “hey there IS STILL a barrier here and the best or only way to demolish it is by looking at a person’s skin color” as racist. And they are definitionally correct.
torstenvl 4y ago
> My guiding principle is that when the diversity of a workforce does not match the diversity of its surroundings... it suggests that people are being filtered out for some reason other than their relevant abilities. No it doesn't. That's only true if all demographics have equal ability and interest in that workforce.
- jawns 4y ago
  Would you care to share what classes of people lack ability in software engineering, which is a relatively high-paying job? Any racial or ethnic groups? Men/women? Veteran status? If you're not willing to name which purported classes of people have low ability in this area, I don't think it's worthwhile to entertain your line of argument.
  - torstenvl 4y ago
    Your omission of "and interest" is conspicuous. If you aren't going to engage honestly, don't engage at all. There's no place on HN for that kind of behavior.
    - jawns 4y ago
      Okay, which classes of people aren't interested in a relatively cushy, relatively high-paying job? Are blacks and Hispanics, underrepresented in tech, just not interested in programming, or is there maybe a chance that they have the same ability and interest, but less access? Overt discrimination does not even need to exist here, but if there are systemic factors that disadvantage some demographic groups, that can also affect access.
      - torstenvl 4y ago
        African-Americans make up a little more than 1% of all CS program enrollments (13 out of 1113, or 1.17%). Not graduation - enrollment. There are some universities where enrollment in certain majors is competitive, but they are the exception, not the rule. So yes, I'm inclined to believe this is indicative of vastly different levels of interest. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of-Computer-Science-degrees-awarded-by-race-and-gender-from-1981_fig3_317351499 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of...
culopatin 4y ago
You could be blinded by bias in a non diverse group no?
yucky 4y ago
> when the diversity of a workforce does not match the diversity of its surroundings, that is a problem, because it suggests that people are being filtered out for some reason other than their relevant abilities. Maybe that reason is systemic bias, or maybe it's direct bias on the part of the company. But somewhere in the process, there's an injustice taking place. Is this true for the workforce in professional sports?
- kthejoker2 4y ago
  The management or the players?
  - yucky 4y ago
    Both? I mean, that's not a gotcha if you meant it to be.
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  Ask the question in reverse: as an extreme, if you could set the rules and material conditions to participate, could you come up with a sport that will filter out most members of specific parts of the population ?
  - yucky 4y ago
    Well anything that requires strength and speed will filter out all females, and most males. Which is what we see in professional sports that are open to all genders.
    - decafninja 4y ago
      You could argue a particular race is extremely underrepresented in professional basketball and American football. How many Asians do you see in the NBA or NFL? As an Asian myself, I have no problem admitting most Asian males simply don’t have the ideal physique to be competitive at the pro level at these sports. You might have extreme outliers like Yao Ming, but that’s exactly what he is - an extreme outlier. Far fewer - extremely fewer, Asian males are likely to have the ideal physique to be a NBA or NFL player than say, Whites or Blacks. Do I see a problem with this? Not at all.

by jawns 4y ago

zmgsabst 4y ago

> My guiding principle is that when the diversity of a workforce does not match the diversity of its surroundings, that is a problem. The people who talk like this argued that Asians don’t deserve equal admission to Harvard or UNC because there’s “too many”. I think that kind of racism is disgusting — choosing people based on skin color is horrific.

makeitdouble 4y ago
You’re putting words in parent’s mouth. I personally never heard someone jumping from one to the other, and don’t see the logical bind either.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  UNC and Harvard both argued before the Supreme Court in 2022 that their anti-Asian racism is for “diversity”. A lot of people are dishonest about that, but the people who crow about “diversity” consistently engage in racialized language — and discrimination based on race, such as discrimination against Asians at those universities. (You can see GP works himself around to the racial angle by the end.) I didn’t put any words in GPs mouth: I pointed out he’s using the language of modern bigots, such as those at Harvard and UNC.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    You are commenting on a case that is still open, and while you seem squarely in favor of SFFA, their claims are far from being validated (they’ve been rejected by lower courts up to this point) What I find interesting in particular from those lawsuits: one of the main argument was the representation of Asians being lower than “white” ethnic groups adjusted for selected academic achievements. That basically goes against your thesis, as doing that intentionally would lower diversity.
marcosdumay 4y ago
Yes, there exist people that do that. Yet, we are talking about a real barrier for many kinds of people that was suddenly lifted, and people are still making an effort to classify the people that pointed "hey, there was a barrier here" as racist. The rhetoric of this thread is amazing.
- abduhl 4y ago
  People are not making an effort to classify the people that pointed out that there was a barrier as racist. They are making an effort to classify people that are currently saying “hey there IS STILL a barrier here and the best or only way to demolish it is by looking at a person’s skin color” as racist. And they are definitionally correct.

torstenvl 4y ago

> My guiding principle is that when the diversity of a workforce does not match the diversity of its surroundings... it suggests that people are being filtered out for some reason other than their relevant abilities. No it doesn't. That's only true if all demographics have equal ability and interest in that workforce.

jawns 4y ago
Would you care to share what classes of people lack ability in software engineering, which is a relatively high-paying job? Any racial or ethnic groups? Men/women? Veteran status? If you're not willing to name which purported classes of people have low ability in this area, I don't think it's worthwhile to entertain your line of argument.
- torstenvl 4y ago
  Your omission of "and interest" is conspicuous. If you aren't going to engage honestly, don't engage at all. There's no place on HN for that kind of behavior.
  - jawns 4y ago
    Okay, which classes of people aren't interested in a relatively cushy, relatively high-paying job? Are blacks and Hispanics, underrepresented in tech, just not interested in programming, or is there maybe a chance that they have the same ability and interest, but less access? Overt discrimination does not even need to exist here, but if there are systemic factors that disadvantage some demographic groups, that can also affect access.
    - torstenvl 4y ago
      African-Americans make up a little more than 1% of all CS program enrollments (13 out of 1113, or 1.17%). Not graduation - enrollment. There are some universities where enrollment in certain majors is competitive, but they are the exception, not the rule. So yes, I'm inclined to believe this is indicative of vastly different levels of interest. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of-Computer-Science-degrees-awarded-by-race-and-gender-from-1981_fig3_317351499 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Nationally-the-number-of...

culopatin 4y ago

You could be blinded by bias in a non diverse group no?

yucky 4y ago

> when the diversity of a workforce does not match the diversity of its surroundings, that is a problem, because it suggests that people are being filtered out for some reason other than their relevant abilities. Maybe that reason is systemic bias, or maybe it's direct bias on the part of the company. But somewhere in the process, there's an injustice taking place. Is this true for the workforce in professional sports?

kthejoker2 4y ago
The management or the players?
- yucky 4y ago
  Both? I mean, that's not a gotcha if you meant it to be.
makeitdouble 4y ago
Ask the question in reverse: as an extreme, if you could set the rules and material conditions to participate, could you come up with a sport that will filter out most members of specific parts of the population ?
- yucky 4y ago
  Well anything that requires strength and speed will filter out all females, and most males. Which is what we see in professional sports that are open to all genders.
  - decafninja 4y ago
    You could argue a particular race is extremely underrepresented in professional basketball and American football. How many Asians do you see in the NBA or NFL? As an Asian myself, I have no problem admitting most Asian males simply don’t have the ideal physique to be competitive at the pro level at these sports. You might have extreme outliers like Yao Ming, but that’s exactly what he is - an extreme outlier. Far fewer - extremely fewer, Asian males are likely to have the ideal physique to be a NBA or NFL player than say, Whites or Blacks. Do I see a problem with this? Not at all.