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Oh wow, that’s terrible. My spellchecker needs to be updated because it doesn’t want me writing “Turkiye.”
by pyuser583 4y ago
Oh wow, that’s terrible.
My spellchecker needs to be updated because it doesn’t want me writing “Turkiye.”
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- midoridensha 4y ago"Turkey" is the correct spelling in English. The Turkish government doesn't get to dictate what their country is called in other languages.
- rippercushions 4y agoThey can ask politely though, and spellings and names do change over time.
- midoridensha 4y agoThey can ask, but their request is stupid. The English language does not have any kind of facility for umlauted characters.
- jcranmer 4y agoHow naïve of you. (Although, technically, that's a diaeresis, not an umlaut.)
- pyuser583 4y agoWhat’s the difference? BTW, that spelling is borderline archaic. It’s allowable, but so is “naive,” which is probably better style. I wouldn’t use semi-archiac spellings as a precedent.
- arp242 4y agoUmlaut modifies how a letter is pronounced; diaeresis tells you where a new syllable starts. I'm not sure how to pronounce "u" or "ü" in Turkish. The problem with naive is that it's not very clear how to pronounce it: it's "na-ive", which isn't very clear. With naïve there's a clear indication that the "i" starts a new syllable. While I agree that diaeresis in English are more archaic than not, I don't agree it's better style to leave them out. Right now there is, in my opinion, no good way to spell some words: "cooperation" is ambiguous (coo-peration, coop-eration, or co-operation?), "co-operation" looks ugly and is an abuse of the hyphen, and "coöperation" is nice but rather archaic. A bit of effort to reduce ambiguity and match spelling and pronunciation (as far as the language allows) doesn't strike me as a bad thing.
- pyuser583 4y agoWhile it’s not clear how to pronounce “naive” - that’s common in English. Plenty of English words have little relation between how they are spelled and how they are pronounced. We don’t usually revert to archaic spellings to solve the matter. https://www.thoughtco.com/chaos-by-charivarius-gerard-nolst-trenite-1689544 https://www.thoughtco.com/chaos-by-charivarius-gerard-nolst-...
- arp242 4y agoWhile naïve is less common than naive, it is not archaic; it's simply an alternative spelling that's less commonly used. Actually, to my surprise naïve even seems to be gaining in popularity to the point it's about on-par with naive: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=naive%2Cna%C3%AFve&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=3 https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=naive%2Cna%C3%... And that other words in English have unfortunate spelling is not really a very string argument. You can use this on anything.
- lucozade 4y ago> naïve even seems to be gaining in popularity I wonder if this is the impact of technology. When written by hand, there's not much practical difference between naive and naïve. With English typewriters and English keyboards, writing naïve is tricky so people, presumably, just didn't bother. Now, however, a lot of written text goes through spelling correction so, if the spell checker wants naïve then it may automatically change it or suggest you do. In my completely rigorous and scientifically valid testing of this assumption: Word corrects to naïve, Chrome text box flags naïve, Edge text box is happy with both and imessage suggests naive. So bit of a mixed bag.
- defrost 4y agoThat'll be news to Motörhead and fans. (English band formed in London in 1975 and rocking an umlaut ever since)
- NoZebra120vClip 4y agoThe façade of your rôle in the naïve crusade against Türkiye's self-determination will not last for an æternity, my friend. You'd better update your résumé!
- mlindner 4y agoAgreed. They can try for "Turkiye" but not "Türkiye". That one will never be accepted.
- lmz 4y agoWhy is this kind of argument valid for countries but not for pronouns?
- midoridensha 4y agoDon't get me started on the silliness of people inventing completely unique "pronouns" and demanding everyone use them: it completely defeats the linguistic purpose of pronouns. If you want to be referred to a certain way, we already have something for that: it's called a "name". You can name yourself whatever you want. Anyway, back to your comment: this is a different issue. The pronoun thing is dealing with how people want themselves referred to in their own language, by people they know usually. The Turkey thing is about a government that wants its country called by a different name in a foreign language that it doesn't use.
- rat9988 4y agoThey do use english though.
- joshuahaglund 4y agoThe US State Department has already adopted the new spelling, so you're wrong. https://www.npr.org/2023/01/08/1147704945/the-state-department-will-begin-spelling-turkey-as-turkiye https://www.npr.org/2023/01/08/1147704945/the-state-departme... It's silly to think things don't change and rude to call people names they don't want to be called
- midoridensha 4y agoNews flash: The US State Department is not the authority on the English language either. Nor is the US government. The only authority on the English language is popular usage.
- AYBABTME 4y agoNews flash: popular usage will shift based on popular intentions, and you might be in the losing camp here.
- spoils19 4y agoI disagree. The English language has spread around the world due to the US' work internationally.
- mlindner 4y agoMore recently yes, but historically it was from the British Empire. US's influence has helped expand it to many countries that never had former extensive use of English creating many new second language speakers, but in terms of first language speakers, the British Empire is still the cause of almost all of them.
- nradov 4y agoWell the UK government now also uses the "Türkiye" spelling.
- 4y ago
- duluca 4y agoLol. Yes they do. There are dozens of instances of names of places being changed due to what the local population wants it to be called. Putting politics aside, disambiguating from the bird turkey is smart from a marketing and tourism sense.
- midoridensha 4y ago>There are dozens of instances of names of places being changed due to what the local population wants it to be called. Sorry, no, not outside a country, when dealing with foreign languages. Every language has different names for other countries, and they're frequently quite different from each other. Countries have no way of forcing foreign languages to adopt any particular name in those languages.
- zimpenfish 4y ago> Sorry, no, not outside a country, when dealing with foreign languages. Are you saying there's no instances where a country has "rebranded" (for want of a better term) its own name and people outside that country have gone along with it?
- midoridensha 4y agoIt's not smart when they're demanding the use of a Turkish word that doesn't fit into English characters or pronunciation rules. And why aren't they making the same demands of other languages anyway? How about Chinese? How exactly would their new name fit into Chinese, a language that doesn't use Latin characters at all? Not to mention all the other European languages that do?
- pyuser583 4y agoOk, fine. But from now on I’m buying a Thanksgiving Türkiye.
- kelnos 4y agoNames of places do certainly change, but that does not dictate how those names are spelled/represented in other languages. Now, you or anyone else can certainly spell it "Türkiye" instead of "Turkey", but a) you risk confusing people (which you may or may not care about), and b) typing "ü" is awkward on many (most? all?) English-layout keyboards. I suppose you could also spell it "Turkiye", which I suppose is closer to what the Turkish government wants, but is still "incorrect". At any rate, I personally see little reason to change unless popular usage overwhelmingly changes. At least in the US, popular usage (which influences dictionaries) dictates English spelling, not governments.
- egorfine 4y agoAs a Ukrainian I can feel the pain. Some people in the government renamed the english spelling of my city into an unreadable alphabet soup. Not only they strongly insist the whole world to spell it this way, they also deem everyone who doesn't like it a traitor. So, spelling matters. A lot. Unfortunately.
- mlindner 4y agoI'm not sure how this is related to this case? Isn't there still a cyrillic spelling of your city? Did they change that one as well? I wouldn't be surprised if they changed the English spelling to match the cyrillic one. Is it the same?
- Koshkin 4y agoThere are two Cyrillic spellings, one being Ukrainian and one Russian. Previously the transliterations were based on the Russian spelling.
- mlindner 4y agoAh I see. I think that's fine given the current conditions. However at some point, long after this war, it'd be nice to see Ukraine endorse a policy of multilingualism, as many other European countries seem to manage just fine.
- midoridensha 4y agoI'm sure they'll be very happy to support both Ukrainian and English, and perhaps some Polish or Moldovan.
- sourcecodeplz 4y agoWhy not?
- mlindner 4y agoTurkey is the common spelling in English so no need for an update. That's not going to be changing any time soon.
- halper 4y agoIt's because it is spelt Türkiye, not Turkiye. It is the official name used by organs like the UN, the United States Department of State etc but that doesn't mean you can't be using Turkey. It's like Taiwan, which few people refers to as "Republic of China". The good thing is that Türkiye is pronounced almost like Turkey, so you're saying it almost right ;)
- Koshkin 4y agoHow am I even supposed to pronounce it?