6 ms·

Mastodon is essentially centralized — you just pick who you trust with full centralized authority before they have a change of heart, fail, begin rent collectin

Mastodon is essentially centralized — you just pick who you trust with full centralized authority before they have a change of heart, fail, begin rent collecting, whatever. Nobody seems to understand how difficult it is to make a system that can guarantee its neutrality within the protocol. (Sorry HN: it requires crypto.)

pkulak 4y ago
Then host your own instance. Your definition of "centralized" as "optionally requiring any trust at all" is pretty broad, and sweeps up even email.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  ActivityPub is a protocol designed for decentralization, but the Mastadon software itself really is not a great option for self hosting. In practical terms, for non-technical users (i.e. the people you need for broad adaptation) self-hosting it is a non-starter. The same is definitely true for email. There are many providers, so "centralized" is a bit of a loose label, but running your own email server comes with non-trivial pitfalls that keep most people away.
  - leesalminen 4y ago
    The `nostr-rs-relay` package is a simple self-contained rust application with a sqlite db that can run in a docker container. Super simple to self-host and if just using it to save your own notes is more than enough. https://github.com/scsibug/nostr-rs-relay https://github.com/scsibug/nostr-rs-relay
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    Use Pleroma instead of Mastodon, it is quite easy to host and only takes a fraction of the resources Mastodon does - it idles at 165 MB on my test instance (single user logged in, no activity). From what I've seen it should possible for non-technical people to self-host it as long as there is a possibility for remote-access assistance (and there's your business model, sell wall warts with self-hosted services with optional remote assistance). That said I do prefer a mail-based system like Delta Chat [1] over these ActivityPub-based things since everyone already has a mail address and there is a wide range of software to choose from. [1] https://delta.chat/en/ https://delta.chat/en/
anonkogudhyfhhf 4y ago
Crypto meaning cryptography yes it's needed. If you a referencing bitcoin like technology used for money no they don't help here. Please enough with this "crypto" ignorance
- lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
  How do you guarantee data availability and avoid double spending without Byzantine fault tolerant consensus (that is, blockchain crypto)? If you have an answer you will be onto something huge.
  - anonkogudhyfhhf 4y ago
    What? Double spend a twitter message you sign? Please example your logic here and use of the technology
- hem777 4y ago
  Think of cryptos more like “incentives to rational behavior” than “money” and it starts to make sense. You can incentivize, for example, data availability with cryptos and that opens the design space for distributed systems that don’t need to be controlled by one entity (like Twitter, for example).
  - anonkogudhyfhhf 4y ago
    Nostr already has bitcoin payments for incentives. Please example one concrete example where a blockchain is needed for nostr protocol itself
    - hem777 4y ago
      Does it? If so, what do the bitcoin payments incentivize?
    - legutierr 4y ago
      There are two places where a blockchain would be very useful in this context: guaranteeing completeness (allowing you to confirm whether or not you have downloaded all the posts ever created by a user), and preventing timestamp forgery.
libraryatnight 4y ago
It may need cryptography. I think the majority of HN likes cryptography. When you say crypto, and apologize for it, I assume you mean the stupid coins and all the nonsense that comes with that group of fools, and that is not required.
- lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
  How do you guarantee data availability and avoid double spending without Byzantine fault tolerant consensus?
  - moojd 4y ago
    Consensus isn't a fundamental requirement for social media or a communication protocol. Email doesn't require a blockchain and doesn't care about 'double spending' or whatever.
    - hem777 4y ago
      The previous comment didn’t ask for consensus for a social media or communication protocol specifically but rather was two steps ahead and was referring to the infrastructure that those protocols run on. Under the hood, there are various consensus mechanisms in current day social media or communication protocol infrastructure systems and those systems are needed to make sure (user) data is available. In order to run a data availability system, there’s a consensus required somewhere there. If you want to have the infrastructure provider run it “honestly”, in a protocol sense, then you need incentives for them to do so. If you need incentives, then you need kind of transactional system in a payment and accounting system sense. And that’s where you then need to care about “double spending”.
    - MitPitt 4y ago
      Did email ever manage to become largely decentralized? Most people use centralized services like gmail, and pay for it with their privacy. It's not viable for the majority to have their own servers
  - drowsspa 4y ago
immibis 4y ago
This is why I installed my own Pleroma instance (immibis@social.immibis.com). It's not very difficult. I hear Mastodon is much more painful to install.

pkulak 4y ago

Then host your own instance. Your definition of "centralized" as "optionally requiring any trust at all" is pretty broad, and sweeps up even email.

zdragnar 4y ago
ActivityPub is a protocol designed for decentralization, but the Mastadon software itself really is not a great option for self hosting. In practical terms, for non-technical users (i.e. the people you need for broad adaptation) self-hosting it is a non-starter. The same is definitely true for email. There are many providers, so "centralized" is a bit of a loose label, but running your own email server comes with non-trivial pitfalls that keep most people away.
- leesalminen 4y ago
  The `nostr-rs-relay` package is a simple self-contained rust application with a sqlite db that can run in a docker container. Super simple to self-host and if just using it to save your own notes is more than enough. https://github.com/scsibug/nostr-rs-relay https://github.com/scsibug/nostr-rs-relay
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  Use Pleroma instead of Mastodon, it is quite easy to host and only takes a fraction of the resources Mastodon does - it idles at 165 MB on my test instance (single user logged in, no activity). From what I've seen it should possible for non-technical people to self-host it as long as there is a possibility for remote-access assistance (and there's your business model, sell wall warts with self-hosted services with optional remote assistance). That said I do prefer a mail-based system like Delta Chat [1] over these ActivityPub-based things since everyone already has a mail address and there is a wide range of software to choose from. [1] https://delta.chat/en/ https://delta.chat/en/

anonkogudhyfhhf 4y ago

Crypto meaning cryptography yes it's needed. If you a referencing bitcoin like technology used for money no they don't help here. Please enough with this "crypto" ignorance

lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
How do you guarantee data availability and avoid double spending without Byzantine fault tolerant consensus (that is, blockchain crypto)? If you have an answer you will be onto something huge.
- anonkogudhyfhhf 4y ago
  What? Double spend a twitter message you sign? Please example your logic here and use of the technology
hem777 4y ago
Think of cryptos more like “incentives to rational behavior” than “money” and it starts to make sense. You can incentivize, for example, data availability with cryptos and that opens the design space for distributed systems that don’t need to be controlled by one entity (like Twitter, for example).
- anonkogudhyfhhf 4y ago
  Nostr already has bitcoin payments for incentives. Please example one concrete example where a blockchain is needed for nostr protocol itself
  - hem777 4y ago
    Does it? If so, what do the bitcoin payments incentivize?
  - legutierr 4y ago
    There are two places where a blockchain would be very useful in this context: guaranteeing completeness (allowing you to confirm whether or not you have downloaded all the posts ever created by a user), and preventing timestamp forgery.

libraryatnight 4y ago

It may need cryptography. I think the majority of HN likes cryptography. When you say crypto, and apologize for it, I assume you mean the stupid coins and all the nonsense that comes with that group of fools, and that is not required.

lazzlazzlazz 4y ago
How do you guarantee data availability and avoid double spending without Byzantine fault tolerant consensus?
- moojd 4y ago
  Consensus isn't a fundamental requirement for social media or a communication protocol. Email doesn't require a blockchain and doesn't care about 'double spending' or whatever.
  - hem777 4y ago
    The previous comment didn’t ask for consensus for a social media or communication protocol specifically but rather was two steps ahead and was referring to the infrastructure that those protocols run on. Under the hood, there are various consensus mechanisms in current day social media or communication protocol infrastructure systems and those systems are needed to make sure (user) data is available. In order to run a data availability system, there’s a consensus required somewhere there. If you want to have the infrastructure provider run it “honestly”, in a protocol sense, then you need incentives for them to do so. If you need incentives, then you need kind of transactional system in a payment and accounting system sense. And that’s where you then need to care about “double spending”.
  - MitPitt 4y ago
    Did email ever manage to become largely decentralized? Most people use centralized services like gmail, and pay for it with their privacy. It's not viable for the majority to have their own servers
- drowsspa 4y ago

immibis 4y ago

This is why I installed my own Pleroma instance (immibis@social.immibis.com). It's not very difficult. I hear Mastodon is much more painful to install.