5 ms·

A lot of people are taking this as yet another example of Dropbox changing things for no reason, but I think it’s important to make clear that in this case Appl

by jez 4y ago

A lot of people are taking this as yet another example of Dropbox changing things for no reason, but I think it’s important to make clear that in this case Apple is forcing their hand. Dropbox is being told by Apple that apps must integrate with File Provider API[1] if they want to present files that don't exist on disk until they’re first opened. This API is hamstrung and limiting, full of instabilities and quirks (designed to fit iCloud primarily but not necessarily everyone else). In my opinion, the fault lies with Apple here. [1] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/fileprovider https://developer.apple.com/documentation/fileprovider (Full disclosure: I interned at Dropbox for 3 months 8 years ago.)

flangola7 4y ago
I don't see how Apple can force the matter. Why would Dropbox comply if it breaks things?
- Twisell 4y ago
  They can't force but they can't retract from the AppStore. You'd still be able to deliver outside the AppStore with a signed App on MacOS but with way less visibility.
  - jshier 4y ago
    Who's discovering DropBox from the App Store? Seems like they could drop that and be just fine. Much smaller devs have.
  - flangola7 4y ago
    Who installs anything to a desktop computer from an app store instead of the developer's website?
    - msingh_5 4y ago
      I prefer installing things from App Store on my parents' computers cause it will handle automatic updates and provides certain guarantees (i.e. can rely on Apple not letting malware onto their App Store).
- Kwpolska 4y ago
  Dropbox currently uses API X to have files that are available online but still visible from the Finder and other apps and can be downloaded on-demand. Apple wants to retire API X and offers API Y (FileProvider) as a replacement. If Dropbox want to keep the download-on-demand feature, they must switch.
- easton 4y ago
  It’s because their implementation of “files downloaded on demand when you click on them” required a kext, and kexts can’t be loaded on Apple Silicon without weakening (disabling?) system integrity protection. Google Drive and OneDrive had to wait a while before Apple had these APIs ready before they could make non-Rosetta versions, and I’m sure Dropbox was the same way, we’re just hearing about it now.
  - flangola7 4y ago
    What is a kext? What is system integrity protection? What is Rosetta? I don't use Mac
    - charrondev 4y ago
      - Kext == Kernel Extension - System Integrity Protection (or SIP) is a feature where various core operating system files around the boot process and kernel must be signed by Apple or the machine will not boot. It can be disabled, but this leaves your machine in a much more insecure state and can cause certain features to be disabled. I know for example I would get reamed by my companies InfoSec team I had SIP disabled on my corporate machine. - Rosetta 2 is an transparent and efficient x86 -> to ARM64 translation layer on MacOS. It’s used on Macs with apples m series of processors to run old software that hasn’t been recompiled for the new architecture. It runs quite efficiently actually with ~15% performance overhead in my experience. Rosetta 1 was and older version of the same thing from the last Mac CPU architecture change (PowerPC -> x86)
      - flangola7 4y ago
        It doesn't allow the developer to sign their own kernel extensions? That's seems mighty asymmetric.
        charrondev 4y ago
        A developer can sign their own kernel extensions, even on M1. It just requires you to initially set the machine into a specific mode that allows it. The people this puts pressure on is not individuals trying to write or sign their own kernel extensions if they know what they are doing (essentially reboot into recovery and run some some shell commands). It does prevent - Unsuspecting or otherwise ignorant users from being tricked into installing a malicious kernel extension. - Prevent large companies from distributing custom kernel extensions for every day users
shortformblog 4y ago
I had frustrations with Dropbox about a lot of this when I realized they had made little public effort for Apple Silicon, but I think the fact that Dropbox is kind of stuck moving in this direction essentially highlights that Apple’s approach to cloud works for Apple … but not really anyone else. I think for tools like like Box or even OneDrive, this move makes sense for, but Dropbox is intended to be a living backup of your primary folders, and that model just doesn’t fit with this. This is almost bad enough to the point where the right play might be to have a machine on another platform, like Linux or Windows, manage your file sync, then to just access it on your local network. Apple really messed this up.
- Twisell 4y ago
  Well from a user and third party developer perpective it actually does make some sense for an OS to provide standardisation over cloud storage. "If in folder X expect content to require fetching depending on application Y settings and act/manage exceptions accordingly. You can use that API if needed than standardize sync states across providers" It is easier to exclude or target specifically for backup, easier to know you shouldn't store there for offline use, etc... Being forced into OneDrive on Windows10 for corporate need since 10 month, I can tell you it's unbelievably easy to misconfigure OneDrive into a slugish unresponsive nightmare. Especially if you dare mix Organization OneDrive and Organization Sharepoint "mount points" in not exactly the good non obvious way. (never ever for hell's sake use the sync button in SharePoint website, use add to your OneDrive button)
  - shortformblog 4y ago
    > Well from a user and third party developer perpective it actually does make some sense for an OS to provide standardisation over cloud storage. There’s standardization and there’s treating every cloud service like it should only work in one way. Dropbox for years sold itself as being intended to work as your hard drive that could follow you as you switched devices. But now it’s working on a platform that actively discourages its use in that way, one that is operated by a company that is a direct competitor to Dropbox (albeit one that is not cross-platform). It feels like they’re getting crunched by standardization that is meant to disrupt their business model. Now is that business model struggling for other reasons? Sure. But it shouldn’t be missed how this shift is arguably more disruptive to Dropbox than many of its competitors. I’m not saying that standardization isn’t a good idea. But the API clearly was built without a lot of input from users of these services to understand why they want them to work in certain ways.
t8sr 4y ago
Apple can’t (yet) stop you syncing a folder somewhere on the disk. Other services offer this feature - sync.com for example, which I switched to after Dropbox announced this change. Dropbox wants to offer some features that are only available through Apple’s API. They want to be on the App Store. But they need to weigh that against what still is their primary feature, and literally how the product was described when sold. “A folder synchronized across all your devices.” I am not a product manager, but I simply would not throw out my main feature and the thing that differentiates me in the market, in order to provide some features Apple wants, where the only difference between me and OneDrive is the icon.
- klabb3 4y ago
  I agree, but I think it’s important to point out: I believe the main feature they need is to sync the full file tree without having to download the actual files until needed. I don’t know how others do it, but I assume that you’d have to manually maintain mappings between a subtree in the cloud to one on disk, or alternatively run out of disk space if you want to have everything synced. Non-techies will find it incredibly annoying to map individual subtrees leading to missing files, upfront sync costs when you need those, and running out of disk space. Dropbox cannot afford to simply throw their hands up and blame the users for not being technical enough. That said, this hack (pretending your files are on disk) is arguably a fragile one, and perhaps shouldn’t exist in the first place (assuming it’s not a networked file system, which I believe it’s not). Or at the very least, they could have attempted to publish a standard. But if dropbox is just another proprietary piece of software running hacks, I can’t really blame Apple.
  - t8sr 4y ago
    What I find surprising is that Dropbox is apparently willing to just fit in the narrow space Apple has carved out for them. Especially now, when companies are cutting their spend, this is an extraordinary misstep. If I am already paying for iCloud, Google Apps, or Office 365, I can get exactly what Dropbox offers for free, and better integrated with the other productivity apps. So why exactly would anyone use Dropbox now? There is nothing to differentiate them. It’s hard to see this as anything other than the beginning of the end for Dropbox.
bspammer 4y ago
I want all my Dropbox files to be actually present on disk at all times, so this change has only downsides for me. I’ve been with Dropbox for over a decade at this point, mostly out of inertia, but forcibly changing the location of the folder will likely push me to finally switch away.
- msingh_5 4y ago
  Do you use a custom location? Or default to ~/Dropbox? You can always symlink to whatever location Dropbox forces upon you…
arthur-st 4y ago
This really is a full disclosure, huh.

by jez 4y ago

flangola7 4y ago

I don't see how Apple can force the matter. Why would Dropbox comply if it breaks things?

Twisell 4y ago
They can't force but they can't retract from the AppStore. You'd still be able to deliver outside the AppStore with a signed App on MacOS but with way less visibility.
- jshier 4y ago
  Who's discovering DropBox from the App Store? Seems like they could drop that and be just fine. Much smaller devs have.
- flangola7 4y ago
  Who installs anything to a desktop computer from an app store instead of the developer's website?
  - msingh_5 4y ago
    I prefer installing things from App Store on my parents' computers cause it will handle automatic updates and provides certain guarantees (i.e. can rely on Apple not letting malware onto their App Store).
Kwpolska 4y ago
Dropbox currently uses API X to have files that are available online but still visible from the Finder and other apps and can be downloaded on-demand. Apple wants to retire API X and offers API Y (FileProvider) as a replacement. If Dropbox want to keep the download-on-demand feature, they must switch.
easton 4y ago
It’s because their implementation of “files downloaded on demand when you click on them” required a kext, and kexts can’t be loaded on Apple Silicon without weakening (disabling?) system integrity protection. Google Drive and OneDrive had to wait a while before Apple had these APIs ready before they could make non-Rosetta versions, and I’m sure Dropbox was the same way, we’re just hearing about it now.
- flangola7 4y ago
  What is a kext? What is system integrity protection? What is Rosetta? I don't use Mac
  - charrondev 4y ago
    - Kext == Kernel Extension - System Integrity Protection (or SIP) is a feature where various core operating system files around the boot process and kernel must be signed by Apple or the machine will not boot. It can be disabled, but this leaves your machine in a much more insecure state and can cause certain features to be disabled. I know for example I would get reamed by my companies InfoSec team I had SIP disabled on my corporate machine. - Rosetta 2 is an transparent and efficient x86 -> to ARM64 translation layer on MacOS. It’s used on Macs with apples m series of processors to run old software that hasn’t been recompiled for the new architecture. It runs quite efficiently actually with ~15% performance overhead in my experience. Rosetta 1 was and older version of the same thing from the last Mac CPU architecture change (PowerPC -> x86)
    - flangola7 4y ago
      It doesn't allow the developer to sign their own kernel extensions? That's seems mighty asymmetric.
      - charrondev 4y ago
        A developer can sign their own kernel extensions, even on M1. It just requires you to initially set the machine into a specific mode that allows it. The people this puts pressure on is not individuals trying to write or sign their own kernel extensions if they know what they are doing (essentially reboot into recovery and run some some shell commands). It does prevent - Unsuspecting or otherwise ignorant users from being tricked into installing a malicious kernel extension. - Prevent large companies from distributing custom kernel extensions for every day users

shortformblog 4y ago

I had frustrations with Dropbox about a lot of this when I realized they had made little public effort for Apple Silicon, but I think the fact that Dropbox is kind of stuck moving in this direction essentially highlights that Apple’s approach to cloud works for Apple … but not really anyone else. I think for tools like like Box or even OneDrive, this move makes sense for, but Dropbox is intended to be a living backup of your primary folders, and that model just doesn’t fit with this. This is almost bad enough to the point where the right play might be to have a machine on another platform, like Linux or Windows, manage your file sync, then to just access it on your local network. Apple really messed this up.

Twisell 4y ago
Well from a user and third party developer perpective it actually does make some sense for an OS to provide standardisation over cloud storage. "If in folder X expect content to require fetching depending on application Y settings and act/manage exceptions accordingly. You can use that API if needed than standardize sync states across providers" It is easier to exclude or target specifically for backup, easier to know you shouldn't store there for offline use, etc... Being forced into OneDrive on Windows10 for corporate need since 10 month, I can tell you it's unbelievably easy to misconfigure OneDrive into a slugish unresponsive nightmare. Especially if you dare mix Organization OneDrive and Organization Sharepoint "mount points" in not exactly the good non obvious way. (never ever for hell's sake use the sync button in SharePoint website, use add to your OneDrive button)
- shortformblog 4y ago
  > Well from a user and third party developer perpective it actually does make some sense for an OS to provide standardisation over cloud storage. There’s standardization and there’s treating every cloud service like it should only work in one way. Dropbox for years sold itself as being intended to work as your hard drive that could follow you as you switched devices. But now it’s working on a platform that actively discourages its use in that way, one that is operated by a company that is a direct competitor to Dropbox (albeit one that is not cross-platform). It feels like they’re getting crunched by standardization that is meant to disrupt their business model. Now is that business model struggling for other reasons? Sure. But it shouldn’t be missed how this shift is arguably more disruptive to Dropbox than many of its competitors. I’m not saying that standardization isn’t a good idea. But the API clearly was built without a lot of input from users of these services to understand why they want them to work in certain ways.

t8sr 4y ago

Apple can’t (yet) stop you syncing a folder somewhere on the disk. Other services offer this feature - sync.com for example, which I switched to after Dropbox announced this change. Dropbox wants to offer some features that are only available through Apple’s API. They want to be on the App Store. But they need to weigh that against what still is their primary feature, and literally how the product was described when sold. “A folder synchronized across all your devices.” I am not a product manager, but I simply would not throw out my main feature and the thing that differentiates me in the market, in order to provide some features Apple wants, where the only difference between me and OneDrive is the icon.

klabb3 4y ago
I agree, but I think it’s important to point out: I believe the main feature they need is to sync the full file tree without having to download the actual files until needed. I don’t know how others do it, but I assume that you’d have to manually maintain mappings between a subtree in the cloud to one on disk, or alternatively run out of disk space if you want to have everything synced. Non-techies will find it incredibly annoying to map individual subtrees leading to missing files, upfront sync costs when you need those, and running out of disk space. Dropbox cannot afford to simply throw their hands up and blame the users for not being technical enough. That said, this hack (pretending your files are on disk) is arguably a fragile one, and perhaps shouldn’t exist in the first place (assuming it’s not a networked file system, which I believe it’s not). Or at the very least, they could have attempted to publish a standard. But if dropbox is just another proprietary piece of software running hacks, I can’t really blame Apple.
- t8sr 4y ago
  What I find surprising is that Dropbox is apparently willing to just fit in the narrow space Apple has carved out for them. Especially now, when companies are cutting their spend, this is an extraordinary misstep. If I am already paying for iCloud, Google Apps, or Office 365, I can get exactly what Dropbox offers for free, and better integrated with the other productivity apps. So why exactly would anyone use Dropbox now? There is nothing to differentiate them. It’s hard to see this as anything other than the beginning of the end for Dropbox.

bspammer 4y ago

I want all my Dropbox files to be actually present on disk at all times, so this change has only downsides for me. I’ve been with Dropbox for over a decade at this point, mostly out of inertia, but forcibly changing the location of the folder will likely push me to finally switch away.

msingh_5 4y ago
Do you use a custom location? Or default to ~/Dropbox? You can always symlink to whatever location Dropbox forces upon you…

arthur-st 4y ago

This really is a full disclosure, huh.