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As a parent, screen time vs no screen time is a fine line that we have to continually renegotiate. Screens can be great, there is so much good information out

As a parent, screen time vs no screen time is a fine line that we have to continually renegotiate. Screens can be great, there is so much good information out there that can enrich our lives. I wouldn't go the "no screens ever" route because that's just being a luddite, robbing them of the change to experience, and acquire expertise in, the digital world that they will be interacting with for the rest of their lives. However, I am not letting my kid roam the internet, there be dragons. In particular YouTube's recommendation algorithm, even in their YouTube kids app, seems to default to serving up horrible brain melting crap instead of anything pedagogical. I am against kids content that is designed solely to entrance and keep them sitting still, it's the equivalent of digital candy floss. For example, the whole "surprise egg" trend, which basically is a video version of the lootbox / Deal Or No Deal, mechanic, is some of the most popular and recommended videos to children on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEB&search_query=surprise+egg https://www.youtube.com/results?sp=mAEB&search_query=surpris... All three of the frist vids we were served by YouTube kids were surprise egg videos. Hard uninstall. Curating content and setting limits on screen time is your job as a parent in this era. We cannot outsource this responsibility to companies and AIs because there is simply no way an algorithm find the stuff that is just right for your child.

bbor 4y ago
I’d argue that our current algorithms can absolutely find the right stuff for your child, its just not in their financial interest to do so. Sad stuff from capitalism, as always.
- Cthulhu_ 4y ago
  That's it exactly; surprise egg videos get repeat views, kids open them up and just hyperfocus and/or zone out on them for hours on end; it's low energy watching. Give them something intellectualy stimulating though, and they'll have brain drain after a while and be too tired to keep watching that kind of content. Bad for revenue, it's better to have them accrue those minutes watched counters all the time.
- alexvoda 4y ago
  There is absolutely no technical reason this problem could not be solved. It is not a technical issue. It is a human issue. Just like most issues of modern society.
  - password4321 4y ago
    Is there an existing service I can pay to curate YouTube? Is it allowed to sell a YouTube app that only offers curated content?
  - TeMPOraL 4y ago
    Right. I.e. it's a hard problem. Technical problems are the easy ones.
passwordoops 4y ago
>Curating content and setting limits on screen time is your job as a parent in this era. This, 100%! We're at the point where the tablet is for podcasts, and we can watch instructional videos with a specific topic in mind (e.g. tips on drawing anime characters). And that's it. It's been a month and we saw a noticeable change literally overnight in quality and amount of sleep, quality of conversation, and the child is generally happier
- alxmng 4y ago
  What age are you talking about?
  - passwordoops 4y ago
    9-11 To be clear, we were strict up until the pandemic when we let things slide. Then all the friends were on messenger and if that's the only source of socializing, well ok. We didn't have YT on the tablet, but through ad clicking she discovered it would sometimes open in the browser, then she just figured out how the browser works. I'd say there was close to a year of virtually unfettered access, up to 2 hours a day, always simultaneously with Messenger Kids for chatting/calling friends. Cutting off was tough, but it happened over the holidays so we all took a full digital diet, and it gave the opportunity to gently introduce the concept of addiction
    - patja 4y ago
      Curious about the use of the word messenger. Do you mean Facebook's Messenger? Isn't that only for age 13 and over?
      - adamauckland 4y ago
        > Isn't that only for age 13 and over If your child has their own tablet set to their age, sure, but I know plenty of people who just let the kids use Mom's iPad
      - theshrike79 4y ago
theshrike79 4y ago
Time spent reading = 2x amount received in screen time works for us. Books (comic books count) have no screen time, neither have any kinds of crafts or other interactive things. Games are more OK in my mind than just passively staring at someone open surprise eggs on Youtube or watching a "let's play" of some game or a "influencer reacts to X" crapfest. Thus we have a separate more generous screen time set for games and another for passive video watching. Now my kid is playing Pokemon Violet/Scarlet with their friend using a WhatsApp video call for communication, all good in my book. I showed them PokedDB and they spend time reading stuff about Pokemon in there while gaming :)
- batch12 4y ago
  We do something similar and cap the time on screens. Also, if the kids start showing signs of wanting screens too much, we refocus them on something else- sometimes for several days or more. When they ask why, we remind them that screens are a tool for us to use, not the other way around-- and it's time to take a break. In fairness, we do this for anything they get overly attached to that could be harmful in excess.
  - msm_ 4y ago
    I hope you're also a role model for this. Do you take multi-day breaks from screens, and take care to avoid wanting screens too much? I'm spending most of my leisure time in front of a screen. Explaining to my children why it's OK for me and not for them would be the hardest part for me.
    - batch12 4y ago
      I do take breaks from things I start to like too much, yes. Currently that's a few months from alcohol.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    Yep, you should always be able to take the screen away without causing a nuclear meltdown in the child. If that's not possible - you've got work to do.
vermote 4y ago
Any recommendations on good pedagogical content channels/playlists on youtube?
- fma 4y ago
  Piggybacking off this, is there a way to allow only certain channels. Unless i missed it, even on YouTube kids I only have the option to block...and to my horror one day I let my kids watch the Peppa Pig official channel and find out later through YouTube recommendations they were watching some grown man playing with Peppa Pig toys. Also, my eldest is 6 and already knows you can get to YouTube via browser -__-
  - BillyTheMage 4y ago
    "Also, my eldest is 6 and already knows you can get to YouTube via browser" That's a good thing, they won't be completely ignorant with computers. You need to teach them how to be safe, not keep them away from it. These hyper-restrictive measures are the equivalent of the D.A.R.E program. They will ultimately harm your kids more than any good they could do.
- HlessClaudesman 4y ago
  Some of our favorite pedogocial youtube channels and topics: Younger Kids: Bounce Patrol: a cut above your average nursery rhyme channel, with singing, dancing and some ABC / 123 lessons. Pocoyo: Very well crafted and entertaining show, slipping in some good lessons. Yo Gabba Gabba: Such a joy, with fun new topics each episode. Older Kids: Science Max / Science Doug Minecraft redstone tutorials: Mumbo Jumbo Scratch programming tutorials: Griffpatch Keyboard / xylophone how do I play this song tutorials Making stuff (out of cardboard) tutorials
- password4321 4y ago
  pre-kindergarden: https://www.youtube.com/@KidsTV123 https://www.youtube.com/@KidsTV123
zahrc 4y ago
100% with you on this one. And we need to make sure parents have the resources to learn themselves. So many parents these days are not even aware how accessible bad content is, or they even consume it themselves, not knowing why it’s bad. As always with parenting there is no 100% right way to do it, but parents need to be educated first, so that they can make reasonable decisions by themselves.
spicyusername 4y ago
Very well said, can't agree more!
culebron21 4y ago
Nailed about the algorithm. As an internet user since 1998, I'd be not so worried about "horrors", but of the algorithm and the "screen-sticky" junk it funnels to my son. But on the other hand, it's my duty to actually be present with him. I see too many parents just paying "gadget ransom" to their kids, to just avoid distraction in unnecessary moments -- like on bus.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
alexvoda 4y ago
I still think that treating the problem as screen time is the wrong approach. It is too low resolution. What happens on the screen matters. Many parents end up using screen time as a very blunt tool because we simply lack better tools. But curating content as a family is close to unfeasible because it goes against sponsored algorithmic curation to which others are still exposed and once a kid is socialized they face the problem of peer pressure. Even if you have a private Jellyfin server that automatically downloads approved fresh content, kids will still complain they do not have access to Youtube like other kids. And now you have become an antagonist. A rule maker to be subverted. I find that caring parents are put in an impossible position of at the same time trying to maintain trust and also be a curator and censor.
- icambron 4y ago
  This is why it is simpler to set time limits and let the kids do what they want. It’s too much management and friction and negotiation otherwise. For now, I’ve done so anyway: games (even dumb ones) are fine but video is only available under special circumstances (e.g. on an airplane). I’m sure even this very coarse line will eventually erode though.
  - Loughla 4y ago
    We had the same rule, and modified it to include type of games. Phone games have time limits, unless it's things like Dragonbox, flow free, or other "educational" games (at least games that require some kind of thinking) approved by us beforehand, including minecraft. Because 99.999% of games for children are just absolute trash stuffed full of ads. Any PC game that is age appropriate gets a pass, but only if it's evening and we're inside already, or if it's really shitty outside. As a non-tech person, the one thing I haven't been able to figure out is how to encourage 'tinkering' in an active way. So much technology today is meant to be set and forget. I had my oldest build a linux pc last year, and that seemed to pique his interest, but it was short lived, because so much is just apps and consumption with no backend. Even age appropriate apps for programming and learning about that sort of thing are very boxed in.
    - 4y ago
Cthulhu_ 4y ago
And you'll have to remember that curating content won't be possible forever. At some point they will be alone with an unlocked device and the internet, probably much sooner than you're comfortable with. We've got filters set up at home; they worked fine for a while, but teenagers are easily impressed and soon we had to add stock photo websites to these filters. Then there's free VPN services, going around the (consumer grade) filters and time limits entirely. Next up, schools give kids laptops, but they don't have the necessary IT prowess to lock them or the school internet down (and there's unrestricted public wifi everywhere, of course). The amount of shit I've found on there is unreal, and of course the thing breaks because of caggy-handedness.
- HlessClaudesman 4y ago
  Thanks for this reminder. I am dreading that first flight into the unrestricted internet, but I guess I had better get my head around it.
  - BillyTheMage 4y ago
    Maybe try to actually prepare your kids for these moments instead of trying to restrict them so hard. Teach them how to use a computer for real, instead of sitting them down at a hyper-restricted one for an hour a week. Would you let your kids get a driver's license without teaching them the rules of road safety? Would you let your kids cook without telling them the stove is hot and will hurt them? Do your kids know not to let random people in the house? Or do you just helicopter them so they never experience danger?
dr-detroit 4y ago
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furyg3 4y ago
Curation is key and there need to be better tools. I strongly limit my kid's screen time, and was pleasantly surprised by the PBS kids video app (and to some extent the games app). I felt very comfortable leaving her alone with that at the designated screen times, as most programs had at least some educational component... or at least had some generic but positive moral lessons. And (key!) she gets personal choice in what she watches, out of a curated garden. As she's gotten older these programs are not cutting it, though, and she is asking for Netflix more and more. The problem is that the vast majority of kids shows are just garbage. Basically the equivalent of sitcoms or (worse) dramas about girls being cliquey or mean or whatever. I'm looking for another garden with a wide variety of bigger kid shows that have some positive qualities to them. Sure, there are great programs on there, but I wish I could pre-select those programs and give her a selection out of them. Netflix lets me set age limits and block programs, but I'd rather spend some time selecting 20-30 shows/movies that allows her to feel free while still giving me some control
- t344344 4y ago
  yt-dlp works quite well. Why even bother with internet?
- phatfish 4y ago
  Torrent the shows you want her to see and setup Jellyfin server. I run one on a Xeon SOC from 2016, but i would be surprised if a Raspberry Pi 4 couldn't handle the transcoding. Install Jellyfin app on a tablet, you just built a curated version of Netflix.
  - yamtaddle 4y ago
    You really do have to do this if you want your kids to be able to pick what they're watching without you right there all the time. If only all these video services would just let parents add content to allow-lists for kids' accounts. But no. It's literally all we need, but they won't do it. [EDIT] Incidentally, Jellyfin doesn't have an allow-list, either. You have to put kids' content in a separate library. They have block lists based on tags, but not a more-useful allow-list. It's been requested and I've thought about doing it—I've looked at the code, looks pretty easy—but, LOL, I have kids! Which I expect is why all the other kid-havers requesting the feature haven't gotten around to it, either. [EDIT AGAIN] The reason the separate-library solution kinda sucks is it fragments your content, so if you're browsing based on library you have to think "wait, did I decide this was OK for the kids' library?" and it doesn't de-dupe so if you put content in both (say, with hard links to avoid wasting disk space) they'll show up twice on accounts that can access both libraries, plus it means shelling in to move files around to change what's available, plus it's a huge PITA if you want multiple kids' accounts with different content (tags are easy—older kids gets all the kid tags as allowed, younger kids get a smaller set of kid-tags allowed). I'd also personally really like to be able to not display all my kid-friendly content to them all the time (too much choice, same as adults experience on streaming services) and change it up periodically (this also lets me push better things on them that they might not pick from a list of 100 but might pick from a list of 10) which makes the separate-library especially painful, since it means file-management actions every single time I want to change up the kids' library, rather than just some quick tag-shuffling on the Web UI, which I can just do from my phone in a pinch.
ulrikrasmussen 4y ago
We used YouTube for a few months with our first kid but we stopped again because you quickly end up in a rabbit hole where it mostly recommends videos that look weirdly auto-generated, are devoid of any meaningful content and have an uncanny pacifying effect on children - exactly like the surprise egg videos you linked to. We were the ones controlling the app, but the kid quickly learns to recognize the bright thumbnails and requests them. We ended up making up a story about YouTube being broken, and we are still very happy with that choice. I really don't think watching this kind of brain-melting content is healthy for anyone. I think we all know the feeling we get when we have binged a show for too long, that bored and slightly depressed feeling where you want to stop, but you keep going for a little while longer than you should simply because you crave the continued stimulation. I get that feeling almost instantly when watching one of these videos, and I am truly worried about the mental state of kids who watch this stuff for hours every day.
- kibwen 4y ago
  > I really don't think watching this kind of brain-melting content is healthy for anyone. I spent two hours yesterday transfixed by the AI-generated Infinite Seinfeld stream. Afterward I felt the mental equivalent of the feeling you get after eating an entire tray of cookies in a single sitting. This algorithmic crap is brain poison.
  - touisteur 4y ago
    I'm guessing the meta thing we're going to have to become robust to (after 'the system is trying to sell you things you don't want/need' and 'the system is trying to make you feel bad about yourself', 'the system is trying to make you believe that you are more clever than everyone for discovering a cabal', 'the system is trying to get you angry for engagement', 'the system is trying to have you invest in a thing you'll have to pay exponentially to keep enjoying at all') is going to be 'the system is trying to engage you in getting you to watch predictable things'. So many horrible human tech we're teaching our kids to harden against, how powerless is our society that this constant violence is accepted.
scld 4y ago
As far as educational screentime goes, my child has learned addition, subtraction, and multiplication purely from Number Blocks. To the point where we have to do supplemental learning because the fellow kindergarteners are just learning numbers and letters.
- Loughla 4y ago
  I don't think this is the own you think it might be. Our oldest child's kindergarten class (at a very rural, poor school) was doing multiplication and division within the first month, because they all attended a pre-k that encouraged the use of educational games, like Prodigy for math. Like everything, It's what is on the screen and how the child is using it and how involved the parents can be. Number blocks are the same way. They're a great way to learn basic reading and writing, if that's how the parents use it; they are also a great chew toy without some input from the parents.
  - scld 4y ago
    What part is supposed to be an own? I think number blocks is a fantastic program given the alternatives. Makes math fun for the kids.
- PebblesRox 4y ago
  Numberblocks is such a good show! We made an exception to our no-cartoons policy for this one and I don't regret it.
vorpalhex 4y ago
Use tube-archivist which lets you grab your favorite youtube videos and serve them locally. You can basically build a locked down youtube clone for your kid.
lolinder 4y ago
We've had good success with our three-year-old with Khan Academy Kids. We have an old Android tablet that has a few FOSS parental control apps (TimeLimit and App Lock), and he's allowed 30 minutes of Khan or Scratch Junior per day. All other apps are locked by App Lock. Khan Academy Kids strikes a good balance between activities and videos. He enjoys and uses both, and all the content is intentionally teaching something.
browningstreet 4y ago
I found that "screens after N pm" worked well for us. It created a zone where there was no consideration, expectation, or backsliding onto screens. We also kept a VERY consistent bedtime, so that "N pm" to just before bedtime rituals timeblocked screens. If you get on a screen at 4pm it can be hard to suggest putting the screen down to go outside or do something else.
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  Was that a "no screens after N pm" or a "screens only between N pm and bedtime" rule? I can imagine the latter working well, but we never tried because we're worried about screen exposure close to bed time causing sleep issues (blue light, but also because content on screens seems to excite and energize kids somewhat) - we're already having way too much problem getting kids to sleep on a sensible schedule.
  - browningstreet 4y ago
    The latter -- and getting to sleep on a regular schedule wasn't really a challenge in my situation. We did consistently start it at a certain hour, though.. so it would be, say, 7pm to 830pm and then start the bedtime rituals.
    - BillyTheMage 4y ago
      Would you change your rules if your kids showed interest in developing actual computer skills? My parents had rules similar to yours and wouldn't budge, and it effectively killed a decade of potential programming experience. I still resent them for it to a point, but I realize they were just ignorant and thought learning to program was equivalent to playing, because I was at the age they thought I was supposed to be playing. Just... try to avoid making your kids be something they're not, in general.
aantix 4y ago
I created a site, Smart Kid, that removes "Likes" from videos that meet the list of blocked keywords. https://smartk.id/ https://smartk.id/ Our younger kids were always very eager to "hit that like" button on every Minecraft video known to man, so this was attempt to mitigate that issue. It may help a bit in diversifying your children's recommendations.
takeda 4y ago
> Curating content and setting limits on screen time is your job as a parent in this era. We cannot outsource this responsibility to companies and AIs because there is simply no way an algorithm find the stuff that is just right for your child. Plus the incentive for YouTube/Google to do it right is not that strong as their goal is to make money first.
theGnuMe 4y ago
It's hard for even a parent to find the right stuff for a child... because it is really up to the child in terms of what they find engaging. A lot of PBS kids content is good but not all youtube is bad. The surprise egg thing is a thing almost a cultural thing and it does pass. Kids watch those videos up to about age 5. You find these eggs in Target and Walmart now too so you end up with a junk drawer of fidgets. All the kids end up trading fidgets for awhile as well. Lots of tears but they learn to negotiate. If you are lucky you might skip Pokemon. They then move on to watching Minecraft and Roblox videos. I let my kids facetime and play roblox with their friends at the same time.

bbor 4y ago

I’d argue that our current algorithms can absolutely find the right stuff for your child, its just not in their financial interest to do so. Sad stuff from capitalism, as always.

Cthulhu_ 4y ago
That's it exactly; surprise egg videos get repeat views, kids open them up and just hyperfocus and/or zone out on them for hours on end; it's low energy watching. Give them something intellectualy stimulating though, and they'll have brain drain after a while and be too tired to keep watching that kind of content. Bad for revenue, it's better to have them accrue those minutes watched counters all the time.
alexvoda 4y ago
There is absolutely no technical reason this problem could not be solved. It is not a technical issue. It is a human issue. Just like most issues of modern society.
- password4321 4y ago
  Is there an existing service I can pay to curate YouTube? Is it allowed to sell a YouTube app that only offers curated content?
- TeMPOraL 4y ago
  Right. I.e. it's a hard problem. Technical problems are the easy ones.

passwordoops 4y ago

>Curating content and setting limits on screen time is your job as a parent in this era. This, 100%! We're at the point where the tablet is for podcasts, and we can watch instructional videos with a specific topic in mind (e.g. tips on drawing anime characters). And that's it. It's been a month and we saw a noticeable change literally overnight in quality and amount of sleep, quality of conversation, and the child is generally happier

alxmng 4y ago
What age are you talking about?
- passwordoops 4y ago
  9-11 To be clear, we were strict up until the pandemic when we let things slide. Then all the friends were on messenger and if that's the only source of socializing, well ok. We didn't have YT on the tablet, but through ad clicking she discovered it would sometimes open in the browser, then she just figured out how the browser works. I'd say there was close to a year of virtually unfettered access, up to 2 hours a day, always simultaneously with Messenger Kids for chatting/calling friends. Cutting off was tough, but it happened over the holidays so we all took a full digital diet, and it gave the opportunity to gently introduce the concept of addiction
  - patja 4y ago
    Curious about the use of the word messenger. Do you mean Facebook's Messenger? Isn't that only for age 13 and over?
    - adamauckland 4y ago
      > Isn't that only for age 13 and over If your child has their own tablet set to their age, sure, but I know plenty of people who just let the kids use Mom's iPad
    - theshrike79 4y ago

theshrike79 4y ago

Time spent reading = 2x amount received in screen time works for us. Books (comic books count) have no screen time, neither have any kinds of crafts or other interactive things. Games are more OK in my mind than just passively staring at someone open surprise eggs on Youtube or watching a "let's play" of some game or a "influencer reacts to X" crapfest. Thus we have a separate more generous screen time set for games and another for passive video watching. Now my kid is playing Pokemon Violet/Scarlet with their friend using a WhatsApp video call for communication, all good in my book. I showed them PokedDB and they spend time reading stuff about Pokemon in there while gaming :)

batch12 4y ago
We do something similar and cap the time on screens. Also, if the kids start showing signs of wanting screens too much, we refocus them on something else- sometimes for several days or more. When they ask why, we remind them that screens are a tool for us to use, not the other way around-- and it's time to take a break. In fairness, we do this for anything they get overly attached to that could be harmful in excess.
- msm_ 4y ago
  I hope you're also a role model for this. Do you take multi-day breaks from screens, and take care to avoid wanting screens too much? I'm spending most of my leisure time in front of a screen. Explaining to my children why it's OK for me and not for them would be the hardest part for me.
  - batch12 4y ago
    I do take breaks from things I start to like too much, yes. Currently that's a few months from alcohol.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  Yep, you should always be able to take the screen away without causing a nuclear meltdown in the child. If that's not possible - you've got work to do.

vermote 4y ago

Any recommendations on good pedagogical content channels/playlists on youtube?

fma 4y ago
Piggybacking off this, is there a way to allow only certain channels. Unless i missed it, even on YouTube kids I only have the option to block...and to my horror one day I let my kids watch the Peppa Pig official channel and find out later through YouTube recommendations they were watching some grown man playing with Peppa Pig toys. Also, my eldest is 6 and already knows you can get to YouTube via browser -__-
- BillyTheMage 4y ago
  "Also, my eldest is 6 and already knows you can get to YouTube via browser" That's a good thing, they won't be completely ignorant with computers. You need to teach them how to be safe, not keep them away from it. These hyper-restrictive measures are the equivalent of the D.A.R.E program. They will ultimately harm your kids more than any good they could do.
HlessClaudesman 4y ago
Some of our favorite pedogocial youtube channels and topics: Younger Kids: Bounce Patrol: a cut above your average nursery rhyme channel, with singing, dancing and some ABC / 123 lessons. Pocoyo: Very well crafted and entertaining show, slipping in some good lessons. Yo Gabba Gabba: Such a joy, with fun new topics each episode. Older Kids: Science Max / Science Doug Minecraft redstone tutorials: Mumbo Jumbo Scratch programming tutorials: Griffpatch Keyboard / xylophone how do I play this song tutorials Making stuff (out of cardboard) tutorials
password4321 4y ago
pre-kindergarden: https://www.youtube.com/@KidsTV123 https://www.youtube.com/@KidsTV123

zahrc 4y ago

100% with you on this one. And we need to make sure parents have the resources to learn themselves. So many parents these days are not even aware how accessible bad content is, or they even consume it themselves, not knowing why it’s bad. As always with parenting there is no 100% right way to do it, but parents need to be educated first, so that they can make reasonable decisions by themselves.

spicyusername 4y ago

Very well said, can't agree more!

culebron21 4y ago

Nailed about the algorithm. As an internet user since 1998, I'd be not so worried about "horrors", but of the algorithm and the "screen-sticky" junk it funnels to my son. But on the other hand, it's my duty to actually be present with him. I see too many parents just paying "gadget ransom" to their kids, to just avoid distraction in unnecessary moments -- like on bus.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

alexvoda 4y ago

I still think that treating the problem as screen time is the wrong approach. It is too low resolution. What happens on the screen matters. Many parents end up using screen time as a very blunt tool because we simply lack better tools. But curating content as a family is close to unfeasible because it goes against sponsored algorithmic curation to which others are still exposed and once a kid is socialized they face the problem of peer pressure. Even if you have a private Jellyfin server that automatically downloads approved fresh content, kids will still complain they do not have access to Youtube like other kids. And now you have become an antagonist. A rule maker to be subverted. I find that caring parents are put in an impossible position of at the same time trying to maintain trust and also be a curator and censor.

icambron 4y ago
This is why it is simpler to set time limits and let the kids do what they want. It’s too much management and friction and negotiation otherwise. For now, I’ve done so anyway: games (even dumb ones) are fine but video is only available under special circumstances (e.g. on an airplane). I’m sure even this very coarse line will eventually erode though.
- Loughla 4y ago
  We had the same rule, and modified it to include type of games. Phone games have time limits, unless it's things like Dragonbox, flow free, or other "educational" games (at least games that require some kind of thinking) approved by us beforehand, including minecraft. Because 99.999% of games for children are just absolute trash stuffed full of ads. Any PC game that is age appropriate gets a pass, but only if it's evening and we're inside already, or if it's really shitty outside. As a non-tech person, the one thing I haven't been able to figure out is how to encourage 'tinkering' in an active way. So much technology today is meant to be set and forget. I had my oldest build a linux pc last year, and that seemed to pique his interest, but it was short lived, because so much is just apps and consumption with no backend. Even age appropriate apps for programming and learning about that sort of thing are very boxed in.
  - 4y ago

Cthulhu_ 4y ago

And you'll have to remember that curating content won't be possible forever. At some point they will be alone with an unlocked device and the internet, probably much sooner than you're comfortable with. We've got filters set up at home; they worked fine for a while, but teenagers are easily impressed and soon we had to add stock photo websites to these filters. Then there's free VPN services, going around the (consumer grade) filters and time limits entirely. Next up, schools give kids laptops, but they don't have the necessary IT prowess to lock them or the school internet down (and there's unrestricted public wifi everywhere, of course). The amount of shit I've found on there is unreal, and of course the thing breaks because of caggy-handedness.

HlessClaudesman 4y ago
Thanks for this reminder. I am dreading that first flight into the unrestricted internet, but I guess I had better get my head around it.
- BillyTheMage 4y ago
  Maybe try to actually prepare your kids for these moments instead of trying to restrict them so hard. Teach them how to use a computer for real, instead of sitting them down at a hyper-restricted one for an hour a week. Would you let your kids get a driver's license without teaching them the rules of road safety? Would you let your kids cook without telling them the stove is hot and will hurt them? Do your kids know not to let random people in the house? Or do you just helicopter them so they never experience danger?

dr-detroit 4y ago

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furyg3 4y ago

Curation is key and there need to be better tools. I strongly limit my kid's screen time, and was pleasantly surprised by the PBS kids video app (and to some extent the games app). I felt very comfortable leaving her alone with that at the designated screen times, as most programs had at least some educational component... or at least had some generic but positive moral lessons. And (key!) she gets personal choice in what she watches, out of a curated garden. As she's gotten older these programs are not cutting it, though, and she is asking for Netflix more and more. The problem is that the vast majority of kids shows are just garbage. Basically the equivalent of sitcoms or (worse) dramas about girls being cliquey or mean or whatever. I'm looking for another garden with a wide variety of bigger kid shows that have some positive qualities to them. Sure, there are great programs on there, but I wish I could pre-select those programs and give her a selection out of them. Netflix lets me set age limits and block programs, but I'd rather spend some time selecting 20-30 shows/movies that allows her to feel free while still giving me some control

t344344 4y ago
yt-dlp works quite well. Why even bother with internet?
phatfish 4y ago
Torrent the shows you want her to see and setup Jellyfin server. I run one on a Xeon SOC from 2016, but i would be surprised if a Raspberry Pi 4 couldn't handle the transcoding. Install Jellyfin app on a tablet, you just built a curated version of Netflix.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  You really do have to do this if you want your kids to be able to pick what they're watching without you right there all the time. If only all these video services would just let parents add content to allow-lists for kids' accounts. But no. It's literally all we need, but they won't do it. [EDIT] Incidentally, Jellyfin doesn't have an allow-list, either. You have to put kids' content in a separate library. They have block lists based on tags, but not a more-useful allow-list. It's been requested and I've thought about doing it—I've looked at the code, looks pretty easy—but, LOL, I have kids! Which I expect is why all the other kid-havers requesting the feature haven't gotten around to it, either. [EDIT AGAIN] The reason the separate-library solution kinda sucks is it fragments your content, so if you're browsing based on library you have to think "wait, did I decide this was OK for the kids' library?" and it doesn't de-dupe so if you put content in both (say, with hard links to avoid wasting disk space) they'll show up twice on accounts that can access both libraries, plus it means shelling in to move files around to change what's available, plus it's a huge PITA if you want multiple kids' accounts with different content (tags are easy—older kids gets all the kid tags as allowed, younger kids get a smaller set of kid-tags allowed). I'd also personally really like to be able to not display all my kid-friendly content to them all the time (too much choice, same as adults experience on streaming services) and change it up periodically (this also lets me push better things on them that they might not pick from a list of 100 but might pick from a list of 10) which makes the separate-library especially painful, since it means file-management actions every single time I want to change up the kids' library, rather than just some quick tag-shuffling on the Web UI, which I can just do from my phone in a pinch.

ulrikrasmussen 4y ago

We used YouTube for a few months with our first kid but we stopped again because you quickly end up in a rabbit hole where it mostly recommends videos that look weirdly auto-generated, are devoid of any meaningful content and have an uncanny pacifying effect on children - exactly like the surprise egg videos you linked to. We were the ones controlling the app, but the kid quickly learns to recognize the bright thumbnails and requests them. We ended up making up a story about YouTube being broken, and we are still very happy with that choice. I really don't think watching this kind of brain-melting content is healthy for anyone. I think we all know the feeling we get when we have binged a show for too long, that bored and slightly depressed feeling where you want to stop, but you keep going for a little while longer than you should simply because you crave the continued stimulation. I get that feeling almost instantly when watching one of these videos, and I am truly worried about the mental state of kids who watch this stuff for hours every day.

kibwen 4y ago
> I really don't think watching this kind of brain-melting content is healthy for anyone. I spent two hours yesterday transfixed by the AI-generated Infinite Seinfeld stream. Afterward I felt the mental equivalent of the feeling you get after eating an entire tray of cookies in a single sitting. This algorithmic crap is brain poison.
- touisteur 4y ago
  I'm guessing the meta thing we're going to have to become robust to (after 'the system is trying to sell you things you don't want/need' and 'the system is trying to make you feel bad about yourself', 'the system is trying to make you believe that you are more clever than everyone for discovering a cabal', 'the system is trying to get you angry for engagement', 'the system is trying to have you invest in a thing you'll have to pay exponentially to keep enjoying at all') is going to be 'the system is trying to engage you in getting you to watch predictable things'. So many horrible human tech we're teaching our kids to harden against, how powerless is our society that this constant violence is accepted.

scld 4y ago

As far as educational screentime goes, my child has learned addition, subtraction, and multiplication purely from Number Blocks. To the point where we have to do supplemental learning because the fellow kindergarteners are just learning numbers and letters.

Loughla 4y ago
I don't think this is the own you think it might be. Our oldest child's kindergarten class (at a very rural, poor school) was doing multiplication and division within the first month, because they all attended a pre-k that encouraged the use of educational games, like Prodigy for math. Like everything, It's what is on the screen and how the child is using it and how involved the parents can be. Number blocks are the same way. They're a great way to learn basic reading and writing, if that's how the parents use it; they are also a great chew toy without some input from the parents.
- scld 4y ago
  What part is supposed to be an own? I think number blocks is a fantastic program given the alternatives. Makes math fun for the kids.
PebblesRox 4y ago
Numberblocks is such a good show! We made an exception to our no-cartoons policy for this one and I don't regret it.

vorpalhex 4y ago

Use tube-archivist which lets you grab your favorite youtube videos and serve them locally. You can basically build a locked down youtube clone for your kid.

lolinder 4y ago

We've had good success with our three-year-old with Khan Academy Kids. We have an old Android tablet that has a few FOSS parental control apps (TimeLimit and App Lock), and he's allowed 30 minutes of Khan or Scratch Junior per day. All other apps are locked by App Lock. Khan Academy Kids strikes a good balance between activities and videos. He enjoys and uses both, and all the content is intentionally teaching something.

browningstreet 4y ago

I found that "screens after N pm" worked well for us. It created a zone where there was no consideration, expectation, or backsliding onto screens. We also kept a VERY consistent bedtime, so that "N pm" to just before bedtime rituals timeblocked screens. If you get on a screen at 4pm it can be hard to suggest putting the screen down to go outside or do something else.

TeMPOraL 4y ago
Was that a "no screens after N pm" or a "screens only between N pm and bedtime" rule? I can imagine the latter working well, but we never tried because we're worried about screen exposure close to bed time causing sleep issues (blue light, but also because content on screens seems to excite and energize kids somewhat) - we're already having way too much problem getting kids to sleep on a sensible schedule.
- browningstreet 4y ago
  The latter -- and getting to sleep on a regular schedule wasn't really a challenge in my situation. We did consistently start it at a certain hour, though.. so it would be, say, 7pm to 830pm and then start the bedtime rituals.
  - BillyTheMage 4y ago
    Would you change your rules if your kids showed interest in developing actual computer skills? My parents had rules similar to yours and wouldn't budge, and it effectively killed a decade of potential programming experience. I still resent them for it to a point, but I realize they were just ignorant and thought learning to program was equivalent to playing, because I was at the age they thought I was supposed to be playing. Just... try to avoid making your kids be something they're not, in general.

aantix 4y ago

I created a site, Smart Kid, that removes "Likes" from videos that meet the list of blocked keywords. https://smartk.id/ https://smartk.id/ Our younger kids were always very eager to "hit that like" button on every Minecraft video known to man, so this was attempt to mitigate that issue. It may help a bit in diversifying your children's recommendations.

takeda 4y ago

> Curating content and setting limits on screen time is your job as a parent in this era. We cannot outsource this responsibility to companies and AIs because there is simply no way an algorithm find the stuff that is just right for your child. Plus the incentive for YouTube/Google to do it right is not that strong as their goal is to make money first.

theGnuMe 4y ago

It's hard for even a parent to find the right stuff for a child... because it is really up to the child in terms of what they find engaging. A lot of PBS kids content is good but not all youtube is bad. The surprise egg thing is a thing almost a cultural thing and it does pass. Kids watch those videos up to about age 5. You find these eggs in Target and Walmart now too so you end up with a junk drawer of fidgets. All the kids end up trading fidgets for awhile as well. Lots of tears but they learn to negotiate. If you are lucky you might skip Pokemon. They then move on to watching Minecraft and Roblox videos. I let my kids facetime and play roblox with their friends at the same time.