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I think it's fair to point out that men commit most violent crimes. That's not good/normal/expected it's just a fact. AI could be used to better understand the

I think it's fair to point out that men commit most violent crimes. That's not good/normal/expected it's just a fact. AI could be used to better understand these associations (e.g. why is there a correlation between Asians and academic performance) and maybe help social leverage advantages more equitably.

chitowneats 4y ago
Is there anything we could point about women? Nothing as terrible as being violent as far as I know, but what about other things? I agree with your premise but I believe it follows we must speak clearly in all cases.
- debacle 4y ago
  Women tend to be bad at salary negotiation, and less likely to change jobs. Middle aged women being taken advantage of in the corporate world is tragic.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    How about behaviors that have detrimental effects to society at large? It seems like many in this thread can't think of any. I certainly can.
- mxkopy 4y ago
  This 'men are violent, therefore women must also be bad in some way' rhetoric makes no sense. There's no purpose for it other than assuaging sore feelings.
  - Jensson 4y ago
    Women are bad at higher level math in the same way men are violent. Not all are, but its a trend. However you aren't allowed to say that for one group, but you are allowed for the other. So this has nothing to do about statistical accuracy, its just political pressure from one side.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - mxkopy 4y ago
      It's nothing to do with political pressure and more to do with ill-formed comparisons. You can't just substitute in random groups for another. In order to make a statement you need to know what you're talking about. And it seems like the HN crowd that so desperately wants to say blacks are more violent than whites, these people have no clue what they're talking about. If you go and look at history you'll quickly see how that statement is just ill-formed.
      - throwaway557211 4y ago
        A woman walking alone at night who encounters a stranger does not care what generative process led to a group disparity, she cares whether she is likely to be in danger. It is politically palatable in polite society for her to be afraid of an unknown man on the basis of his sex. But it is not acceptable for her to even consider that a statistical disparity may exist on the basis of race, or take precautions on that basis, unless it is in the context of condemning society as solely responsible for creating that disparity. A statement of empirical observation cannot be "ill-formed" unless you have appointed yourself ultimate arbiter over why a person might care.
  - chitowneats 4y ago
    I didn't say they must be bad. I asked if we could make any group-based observation at all. Also, your implied statement of "women, on average, have no traits that are unhelpful to the flourishing of human civilization", strikes me as terribly naive.
    - mxkopy 4y ago
      > Also, your implied statement of "women, on average, have no traits that are unhelpful to the flourishing of human civilization" Please point to where I said this.
      - chitowneats 4y ago
        You should look up the definition of the word "imply" if you're confused about it. Arguments have implications. Disagree with that rather than lazily claiming I'm misquoting you when I didn't quote you.
        mxkopy 4y ago
        I'm only confused because I don't think it was ever my intention to say >"women, on average, have no traits that are unhelpful to the flourishing of human civilization"
        chitowneats 4y ago
        Then I would agree with you that women don't have those traits just because men do. But they do have them. We're all human. I wasn't trying to argue the former. Your original response to my comment was disrespectful and uncharitable which is why I responded in kind, despite that generally being an inferior strategy.
        mxkopy 4y ago
        IDK it just seemed like you were espousing whataboutism. Men are violent, but what about women? in this case.
- jfoief 4y ago
  Women are a protected group, so people have biases that prevent them from seeing the reality when it comes to this topic. As evolved beings made to maximize fitness, there were a lot of strategies that worked for women and shaped their psychology that noone dare point out. Also anyone coming too close to the truth will quickly get banned.
- lmm 4y ago
  Women who never marry get paid more than men who never marry once you adjust for hours worked. (Once you adjust for education level this disappears)
jfoief 4y ago
Parent's point was that it wouldn't be acceptable when done regarding some protected group (ex. blacks vs whites), so it shouldn't be acceptable when it comes to men vs women
- elefanten 4y ago
  Especially when the world never stops turning and social change / idea propagation move orders of magnitude faster than they did for most of human history. Consider one of the (largely liberal) discourses rising in the past few years that many vital social metrics and trends indicate men/boys are screwed and women/girls are outcompeting them and thriving much better in present era.
- gwright 4y ago
  There is no reason to think that interpretation of metric that compared "men" and "women" must be aligned with that same metric when men/women is substituted with some other populations. When you make the substitution you completly change the nature of the comparison. Whether either comparison is "acceptable" depends on the metric and the populations. There is no ethical rule that says all comparisons for group X must be acceptable or all comparisons for group Y must be unacceptable.
- standardUser 4y ago
  Then that's a lazy point, because it should be immediately obvious that studies for gender can be conducted easily across time and space whereas most demographic splits being discussed in this thread cannot because they are highly dependent on time/space and have therefore have endless variables that cannot be controlled for.
edgyquant 4y ago
Again, replace “men” with “African Americans” and you also have a statistically true statement (in America at least) that would be considered taboo.
- jonathanlb 4y ago
  That is a falsehood. Per the FBI: "White individuals were arrested more often for violent crimes than individuals of any other race and accounted for 59.1 percent of those arrests." https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
  - antihipocrat 4y ago
    Relative propensity to commit violent crimes is the key metric here, not overall volumes.
    - jonathanlb 4y ago
      No it is not. > I think it's fair to point out that men commit most violent crimes. That's not good/normal/expected it's just a fact. > Again, replace “men” with “African Americans” and you also have a statistically true statement (in America at least) that would be considered taboo.
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
        It makes sense for someone to say "most" in the dichotomy of man / woman more so than it does in the polychotomy of white / black / hispanic or latino / etc. This argument relies on that phrasing to Dwight Schrute them on a technicality rather than arguing related points.
      - antihipocrat 4y ago
        Men and women are split almost 50/50 in the population, using volumes is completely sound in this case.
735892568 4y ago
Nothing is just a fact. If it's fair to point out that men are charged/arrested/convicted at a higher rate, it's also fair to point out that black people are charged/arrested/convicted at a higher rate. Neither of those statistics are "just a fact". They are complex phenomena that we don't fully understand the cause of and should avoid drawing unsupported conclusions from.

chitowneats 4y ago

Is there anything we could point about women? Nothing as terrible as being violent as far as I know, but what about other things? I agree with your premise but I believe it follows we must speak clearly in all cases.

debacle 4y ago
Women tend to be bad at salary negotiation, and less likely to change jobs. Middle aged women being taken advantage of in the corporate world is tragic.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  How about behaviors that have detrimental effects to society at large? It seems like many in this thread can't think of any. I certainly can.
mxkopy 4y ago
This 'men are violent, therefore women must also be bad in some way' rhetoric makes no sense. There's no purpose for it other than assuaging sore feelings.
- Jensson 4y ago
  Women are bad at higher level math in the same way men are violent. Not all are, but its a trend. However you aren't allowed to say that for one group, but you are allowed for the other. So this has nothing to do about statistical accuracy, its just political pressure from one side.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - mxkopy 4y ago
    It's nothing to do with political pressure and more to do with ill-formed comparisons. You can't just substitute in random groups for another. In order to make a statement you need to know what you're talking about. And it seems like the HN crowd that so desperately wants to say blacks are more violent than whites, these people have no clue what they're talking about. If you go and look at history you'll quickly see how that statement is just ill-formed.
    - throwaway557211 4y ago
      A woman walking alone at night who encounters a stranger does not care what generative process led to a group disparity, she cares whether she is likely to be in danger. It is politically palatable in polite society for her to be afraid of an unknown man on the basis of his sex. But it is not acceptable for her to even consider that a statistical disparity may exist on the basis of race, or take precautions on that basis, unless it is in the context of condemning society as solely responsible for creating that disparity. A statement of empirical observation cannot be "ill-formed" unless you have appointed yourself ultimate arbiter over why a person might care.
- chitowneats 4y ago
  I didn't say they must be bad. I asked if we could make any group-based observation at all. Also, your implied statement of "women, on average, have no traits that are unhelpful to the flourishing of human civilization", strikes me as terribly naive.
  - mxkopy 4y ago
    > Also, your implied statement of "women, on average, have no traits that are unhelpful to the flourishing of human civilization" Please point to where I said this.
    - chitowneats 4y ago
      You should look up the definition of the word "imply" if you're confused about it. Arguments have implications. Disagree with that rather than lazily claiming I'm misquoting you when I didn't quote you.
      - mxkopy 4y ago
        I'm only confused because I don't think it was ever my intention to say >"women, on average, have no traits that are unhelpful to the flourishing of human civilization"
        chitowneats 4y ago
        Then I would agree with you that women don't have those traits just because men do. But they do have them. We're all human. I wasn't trying to argue the former. Your original response to my comment was disrespectful and uncharitable which is why I responded in kind, despite that generally being an inferior strategy.
        mxkopy 4y ago
        IDK it just seemed like you were espousing whataboutism. Men are violent, but what about women? in this case.
jfoief 4y ago
Women are a protected group, so people have biases that prevent them from seeing the reality when it comes to this topic. As evolved beings made to maximize fitness, there were a lot of strategies that worked for women and shaped their psychology that noone dare point out. Also anyone coming too close to the truth will quickly get banned.
lmm 4y ago
Women who never marry get paid more than men who never marry once you adjust for hours worked. (Once you adjust for education level this disappears)

jfoief 4y ago

Parent's point was that it wouldn't be acceptable when done regarding some protected group (ex. blacks vs whites), so it shouldn't be acceptable when it comes to men vs women

elefanten 4y ago
Especially when the world never stops turning and social change / idea propagation move orders of magnitude faster than they did for most of human history. Consider one of the (largely liberal) discourses rising in the past few years that many vital social metrics and trends indicate men/boys are screwed and women/girls are outcompeting them and thriving much better in present era.
gwright 4y ago
There is no reason to think that interpretation of metric that compared "men" and "women" must be aligned with that same metric when men/women is substituted with some other populations. When you make the substitution you completly change the nature of the comparison. Whether either comparison is "acceptable" depends on the metric and the populations. There is no ethical rule that says all comparisons for group X must be acceptable or all comparisons for group Y must be unacceptable.
standardUser 4y ago
Then that's a lazy point, because it should be immediately obvious that studies for gender can be conducted easily across time and space whereas most demographic splits being discussed in this thread cannot because they are highly dependent on time/space and have therefore have endless variables that cannot be controlled for.

edgyquant 4y ago

Again, replace “men” with “African Americans” and you also have a statistically true statement (in America at least) that would be considered taboo.

jonathanlb 4y ago
That is a falsehood. Per the FBI: "White individuals were arrested more often for violent crimes than individuals of any other race and accounted for 59.1 percent of those arrests." https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/topic-pages/tables/table-43 https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-...
- antihipocrat 4y ago
  Relative propensity to commit violent crimes is the key metric here, not overall volumes.
  - jonathanlb 4y ago
    No it is not. > I think it's fair to point out that men commit most violent crimes. That's not good/normal/expected it's just a fact. > Again, replace “men” with “African Americans” and you also have a statistically true statement (in America at least) that would be considered taboo.
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
      It makes sense for someone to say "most" in the dichotomy of man / woman more so than it does in the polychotomy of white / black / hispanic or latino / etc. This argument relies on that phrasing to Dwight Schrute them on a technicality rather than arguing related points.
    - antihipocrat 4y ago
      Men and women are split almost 50/50 in the population, using volumes is completely sound in this case.

735892568 4y ago

Nothing is just a fact. If it's fair to point out that men are charged/arrested/convicted at a higher rate, it's also fair to point out that black people are charged/arrested/convicted at a higher rate. Neither of those statistics are "just a fact". They are complex phenomena that we don't fully understand the cause of and should avoid drawing unsupported conclusions from.