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America has a lot of quirks and problems, but in not many other countries can you flagrantly criticize/insult the government/leaders/policy without repercussion

by umvi 4y ago

America has a lot of quirks and problems, but in not many other countries can you flagrantly criticize/insult the government/leaders/policy without repercussion. USA has arguably the greatest freedom of speech protections on earth which is one liberty that is not worth trading for the freedom to drink wine more easily when picnicking in certain places - hence why people are not flocking to authoritarian states that "feel freer" than USA.

ceejayoz 4y ago
> America has a lot of quirks and problems, but in not many other countries can you flagrantly criticize/insult the government/leaders without repercussion. This is possible in most of the developed world. You don't have to have the peculiarities of the American concept of "freedom" to have this one. Someone in Norway gets to enjoy both healthcare and being able to make mean comments about the Prime Minister.
- umvi 4y ago
  Not so. UK, Germany, and indeed most of the EU have significant speech restrictions accompanied by censorship or jail time if you violate them. I'm not super familiar with Norway's speech protections, but it has a smaller population than the US state of Maryland, so it seems to be the exception more than the rule or at least not an easily scalable solution to America's problems. Saying "[Insert Scandinavian country proves it's possible]" is like saying "Look at how well Hacker News is moderated! Facebook and Twitter should take notes on how to do it right and fix the moderation issues with their services."
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    They have very specific speech restrictions around things like Holocaust denial, not "flagrantly criticizing the government". I'll happily give up freedom to publicly be a neo-Nazi if it gives me freedom from "out of network" healthcare bills. Neither society is 100% free; that's the point, really. The trade-offs like this that the American system has selected seem insane.
    - umvi 4y ago
      America is like a union of 50 countries, yet the things you chose to criticize were for the most part not federal level restrictions, but rather cherry-picked quirks of individual states. > They have very specific speech restrictions around things like Holocaust denial, not "flagrantly criticizing the government". Germany, maybe. In UK a scottish man was arrested for tweeting "The only good brit soldier is a deed one, burn auld fella, buuuurrn." about the late Tom Moore. Apparently being arrested for offensive tweets is not uncommon in the UK. Lots of arrested around the time of the queen's death for making fun of the monarchy/dead queen.
      - willyt 4y ago
        Googling ‘arrested for tweeting uk’ brings up some daily mail stories which are quoted in brietbart and other similar websites. Can you find a link to a reliable source? E.g Telegraph, Guardian, Times, Financial Times. Also in the UK being arrested doesn’t equate to being punished, legally the police have to arrest you before you can be questioned.
      - ceejayoz 4y ago
        That happens in the US, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novak_v._City_of_Parma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novak_v._City_of_Parma > Novak v. City of Parma, No. 21-3290, is a 2022 decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit granting qualified immunity to the city of Parma, Ohio, and its officials for prosecuting Anthony Novak over a Facebook page parodying the Parma Police Department's page. As of December 2022, the case is pending certiorari before the Supreme Court of the United States. > cherry-picked quirks of individual states Civil forfeiture? Healthcare? Incarceration? Paid leave? These are each widespread national problems in the US.
    - polski-g 4y ago
      Germany criminalizes opposition to war: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/02/01/qqln-f01.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/02/01/qqln-f01.html
      - 4y ago
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  Isn't a woman in Norway facing jail time for saying that trans men can't be lesbians? Doesn't sound very much like free speech.
  - teolandon 4y ago
    Not what she said and not the core reason she's being investigated.
    - cpurdy 4y ago
      But I heard Alex Jones say something different ...
  - ceejayoz 4y ago
    No, not that statement on its own, and no one's seen jail time in Norway for hate speech alone. The post specifically targeted an individual for harassment. And, again, these tend to be matter of perspective; balancing the right of free speech against the right to be free of discrimination. Each country is picking in these scenarios where rights conflict; I tend to prefer Norway's selections.
- kyleblarson 4y ago
  Ten thousand or so Canadians who lost access to their bank accounts for criticizing their government would like to have a chat with you.
  - katmannthree 4y ago
    > for criticizing their government No. Here's a protip which applies to every country across the globe: if you're donating money to people doing things your government decided is illegal with the express purpose of enabling continued illegal acts, you're gonna have a bad time.
  - bregma 4y ago
    It was dozens of Canadians, it was a transaction freeze by certain banks for a few days, and it was because there was a suspicion of contributing to terrorist organizations. It was not an action by the government and the freeze was lifted quite quickly once the facts were established.
  - rfrey 4y ago
    99.8% of Canadians would like to have a word with you to explain why funding organizations with the public and express raison d'etre of overthrowing the government might get you a finger waggling.
beepbooptheory 4y ago
You are so right. In America you can lead protests and bring to light uncomfortable truths about the government and they can't do anything about it. They do tend to find you dead in your car a few months later... but I'm sure that's just a coincidence though. The important thing is that there are laws that are there to protect you, unlike other countries which aren't as free as the USA.
jmyeet 4y ago
Go look at the extent of anti-BDS legislation and how appeals courts have upheld it in spite of 40 year old precedents to the contrary then talk about “free speech”.
twelve40 4y ago
> hence why people are not flocking to authoritarian states that "feel freer" than USA People are flocking to all kinds of places you are apparently not aware of: > Saudi Arabia is among the top five immigrant destination countries around the world, currently hosting 5.3 million international migrants in its borders That's just one example even though this one is probably not the "feel freer" type. There are others.

by umvi 4y ago

ceejayoz 4y ago

> America has a lot of quirks and problems, but in not many other countries can you flagrantly criticize/insult the government/leaders without repercussion. This is possible in most of the developed world. You don't have to have the peculiarities of the American concept of "freedom" to have this one. Someone in Norway gets to enjoy both healthcare and being able to make mean comments about the Prime Minister.

umvi 4y ago
Not so. UK, Germany, and indeed most of the EU have significant speech restrictions accompanied by censorship or jail time if you violate them. I'm not super familiar with Norway's speech protections, but it has a smaller population than the US state of Maryland, so it seems to be the exception more than the rule or at least not an easily scalable solution to America's problems. Saying "[Insert Scandinavian country proves it's possible]" is like saying "Look at how well Hacker News is moderated! Facebook and Twitter should take notes on how to do it right and fix the moderation issues with their services."
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  They have very specific speech restrictions around things like Holocaust denial, not "flagrantly criticizing the government". I'll happily give up freedom to publicly be a neo-Nazi if it gives me freedom from "out of network" healthcare bills. Neither society is 100% free; that's the point, really. The trade-offs like this that the American system has selected seem insane.
  - umvi 4y ago
    America is like a union of 50 countries, yet the things you chose to criticize were for the most part not federal level restrictions, but rather cherry-picked quirks of individual states. > They have very specific speech restrictions around things like Holocaust denial, not "flagrantly criticizing the government". Germany, maybe. In UK a scottish man was arrested for tweeting "The only good brit soldier is a deed one, burn auld fella, buuuurrn." about the late Tom Moore. Apparently being arrested for offensive tweets is not uncommon in the UK. Lots of arrested around the time of the queen's death for making fun of the monarchy/dead queen.
    - willyt 4y ago
      Googling ‘arrested for tweeting uk’ brings up some daily mail stories which are quoted in brietbart and other similar websites. Can you find a link to a reliable source? E.g Telegraph, Guardian, Times, Financial Times. Also in the UK being arrested doesn’t equate to being punished, legally the police have to arrest you before you can be questioned.
    - ceejayoz 4y ago
      That happens in the US, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novak_v._City_of_Parma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novak_v._City_of_Parma > Novak v. City of Parma, No. 21-3290, is a 2022 decision of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit granting qualified immunity to the city of Parma, Ohio, and its officials for prosecuting Anthony Novak over a Facebook page parodying the Parma Police Department's page. As of December 2022, the case is pending certiorari before the Supreme Court of the United States. > cherry-picked quirks of individual states Civil forfeiture? Healthcare? Incarceration? Paid leave? These are each widespread national problems in the US.
  - polski-g 4y ago
    Germany criminalizes opposition to war: https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/02/01/qqln-f01.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/02/01/qqln-f01.html
    - 4y ago
wonderwonder 4y ago
Isn't a woman in Norway facing jail time for saying that trans men can't be lesbians? Doesn't sound very much like free speech.
- teolandon 4y ago
  Not what she said and not the core reason she's being investigated.
  - cpurdy 4y ago
    But I heard Alex Jones say something different ...
- ceejayoz 4y ago
  No, not that statement on its own, and no one's seen jail time in Norway for hate speech alone. The post specifically targeted an individual for harassment. And, again, these tend to be matter of perspective; balancing the right of free speech against the right to be free of discrimination. Each country is picking in these scenarios where rights conflict; I tend to prefer Norway's selections.
kyleblarson 4y ago
Ten thousand or so Canadians who lost access to their bank accounts for criticizing their government would like to have a chat with you.
- katmannthree 4y ago
  > for criticizing their government No. Here's a protip which applies to every country across the globe: if you're donating money to people doing things your government decided is illegal with the express purpose of enabling continued illegal acts, you're gonna have a bad time.
- bregma 4y ago
  It was dozens of Canadians, it was a transaction freeze by certain banks for a few days, and it was because there was a suspicion of contributing to terrorist organizations. It was not an action by the government and the freeze was lifted quite quickly once the facts were established.
- rfrey 4y ago
  99.8% of Canadians would like to have a word with you to explain why funding organizations with the public and express raison d'etre of overthrowing the government might get you a finger waggling.

beepbooptheory 4y ago

You are so right. In America you can lead protests and bring to light uncomfortable truths about the government and they can't do anything about it. They do tend to find you dead in your car a few months later... but I'm sure that's just a coincidence though. The important thing is that there are laws that are there to protect you, unlike other countries which aren't as free as the USA.

jmyeet 4y ago

Go look at the extent of anti-BDS legislation and how appeals courts have upheld it in spite of 40 year old precedents to the contrary then talk about “free speech”.

twelve40 4y ago

> hence why people are not flocking to authoritarian states that "feel freer" than USA People are flocking to all kinds of places you are apparently not aware of: > Saudi Arabia is among the top five immigrant destination countries around the world, currently hosting 5.3 million international migrants in its borders That's just one example even though this one is probably not the "feel freer" type. There are others.