8 ms·

Yea, as a quite left leaning person i'd be curious to hear how i or anyone i know (who is on the left) marginalizes a group of people. The worst i can think of

Yea, as a quite left leaning person i'd be curious to hear how i or anyone i know (who is on the left) marginalizes a group of people. The worst i can think of is wanting more equal rights for religious groups rather than special treatment of the primary group (in the USA) - which is seen as an attack by much of the right. Likewise i am concerned by the strong emphasis of rural over urban with respect to voting power and representation. Though i have no easy answer here, so i'm pretty unopinionated - just concerned. I'd be really curious where i and the folks i know and discuss with marginalize other groups; as i want to correct that, if we do. Obviously no one here can answer that with specificity to my beliefs but.. my curiosity exists nonetheless heh.

distant_hat 4y ago
The left's support for Islam directly marginalizes minorities within Islamic countries as well as women and gays fighting for their rights there.
- unshavedyak 4y ago
  I'm kinda of undecided on Islam, fwiw. A bit above my pay grade, as i'm rather unsure how we objectively classify religion. There's plenty of Christian sects in the US that actively fight against gay rights/etc here too (though obviously to a far lesser degree in the common case), so it feels like we need some way to classify specific doctrine. With my own lack of doctrine classification i am unsure how to view them. So i tend not to take a stance on it, just like i don't with Christianity. I'm not sure what support you think the left commonly believes in for Islam. Everyone i know is not a fan of most religions, Christianity included. I view self rights far more important, and many religions or denominations directly challenge that. Do you believe most leftists are campaigning for Islamic support? This has not been my experience.
  - jdmtheNth 4y ago
    Successor ideology is fast becoming a religion, if isn't already.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    The concern is stuff like this: https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/12/islamist-students-try-to-disrupt-ex-muslim-maryam-namazies-talk-on-blasphemy-at-goldsmiths-university https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/12/islamist-students...
- pessimizer 4y ago
  Islam: famous left-wing religion. Christianity: notoriously tolerant of minorities, supportive of the equality of women, and gay friendly.
  - distant_hat 4y ago
    Thank you for providing an excellent example of how this support works.
  - darkwraithcov 4y ago
    I mean, you can distort/twist an ostensibly peaceful religion like Christianity into something insidious and outright evil. A lot of atrocities have been committed by devout and pious leaders who claimed to follow a deity/prophet with a peaceful/loving message, so it's unsurprising that it's still a feature of modern religions. There was a point in time where the Islamic world was a world leader in math, science, and technology. Of course, like with anything, time and money corrupts all things. Oil especially taints everything it touches.
- darkwraithcov 4y ago
  The "left," is a truly nebulous concept if you observe leftist discourse online, where circular firing squads are writ large. I think you are conflating the left's support for minority groups who are demonized and targeted by society for support of the tenets of their respective religions. After 9/11, Muslims were a significant target of hatred and violence. The left, which again is not a monolithic entity, doesn't support islam anymore than it supports judaism or any other religion, it supports people who happen to follow that religion. It's based around humanist tendencies, which the right often doesn't understand. You can hate aspects of a religion while also being against any dehumanization and hatred against people who follow said religion. Like the other 2 major Abrahamic religions, Islam has some good and some bad tenets. At least in the US, there are some extremely conservative muslims and some - perhaps shockingly - liberal muslims. Being that they are such a small percentage of the US population, there is a lot of misunderstanding and stereotyping of people who follow Islam.
  - unshavedyak 4y ago
    > .. it supports people who happen to follow that religion. It's based around humanist tendencies, which the right often doesn't understand. You can hate aspects of a religion while also being against any dehumanization and hatred against people who follow said religion. I quite agree with this statement in the context of what i believe. Which is to say i tend to dislike religions and personally i dislike Islam more than most (based on what i observe), but above all i don't want to target people, Muslim or otherwise, based on their religion. I think this also supports a sister comment i made where i describe being unsure what my stance is relative to Islam. Observationally it doesn't seem "good" to me, but its people are also target of a lot of hate in this country (USA). It makes it difficult to discuss objective qualities of a religion without it bleeding into racism or bigotry against those who practice said religion.
    - darkwraithcov 4y ago
      It makes sense if you are an informed, educated person, that organized religion isn't a palatable thing. But neither is our society's obsession with money, and I'd argue many of the problems we have with religions come down to how money and power is wielded, not a few sentences in a very old book. I also find a lot of what conservative christian evangelicals believe to be indistinguishable from wahhabist islam. They seem to hate each other for reasons other than what they actually believe.
- veec_cas_tant 4y ago
  I'm a person that isn't active on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. so I don't see the crazy fringe stuff (usually). For what it's worth, it doesn't seem that the mainstream left (or Democrats, or whatever the term I'm looking for is) really supports or opposes religion in general. They seem to support the person in a "Muslim people are not bad or dangerous" way but don't address the religion. I do see the mainstream right (again, don't know the correct term) support Christianity and oppose both Muslims and Islam itself. I'm not trying to give an opinion, just stating what I see as a person who doesn't interact with the online political sphere at all.
hersko 4y ago
Jews on college campuses [1] and jews in the black lives matter movement [2] come to mind. [1] https://www.frc.org/antisemitism https://www.frc.org/antisemitism [2] https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/black-lives-matters-jewish-problem-in-their-own-words/ https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/black-lives-matters-jewish-p...
- unshavedyak 4y ago
  That's definitely an interesting one. Not shared in my group, nor would i understand what "the left" would have against Jews, especially in a religious context. They seem rather innocuous when compared to the more vocal and physical religions. Do you honestly believe most left leaning individuals have something against the Jews?
  - Jensson 4y ago
    > Do you honestly believe most left leaning individuals have something against the Jews? Antisemitism is more common among left wingers than right wingers, so yes. Or alternatively you could say "do you honestly believe most right leaving individuals have something against X" for so many topics, X could be black people etc. Right wingers are more likely to be against those things, but it isn't like all of them are evil, similarly there is more Jew hate among left wingers, but it isn't like most of them hate Jews either. Most Jew hate today has to do with Israel, right wing is mostly pro Istrael, so most Jew hate comes from the left.
    - unshavedyak 4y ago
      That's interesting. I can understand being reasonably anti-Israel, but i'm suspicious that many people take the leap from being anti-Israel to being anti-Jew. Especially when you consider how many people of both the Jewish faith and/or ethnicity live within the United States. Tbh it feels like a straw man, but we're speculating anyway, so i can't fault you for it. I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. I'll definitely be curious to talk to people i know (when politics comes up) to see their thoughts on Jews and Islam (as a different commenter pointed out). I suspect that no one i know will be anti-Jew or radically pro-Islam. Appreciate the points of discussion/anecdotes. I can't say i agree with them, but they were certainly a surprise. Far from what i expected.
smrtinsert 4y ago
You've entered a bad faith argument by accepting the premise as a given. These political threads seem to be full them.

distant_hat 4y ago

The left's support for Islam directly marginalizes minorities within Islamic countries as well as women and gays fighting for their rights there.

unshavedyak 4y ago
I'm kinda of undecided on Islam, fwiw. A bit above my pay grade, as i'm rather unsure how we objectively classify religion. There's plenty of Christian sects in the US that actively fight against gay rights/etc here too (though obviously to a far lesser degree in the common case), so it feels like we need some way to classify specific doctrine. With my own lack of doctrine classification i am unsure how to view them. So i tend not to take a stance on it, just like i don't with Christianity. I'm not sure what support you think the left commonly believes in for Islam. Everyone i know is not a fan of most religions, Christianity included. I view self rights far more important, and many religions or denominations directly challenge that. Do you believe most leftists are campaigning for Islamic support? This has not been my experience.
- jdmtheNth 4y ago
  Successor ideology is fast becoming a religion, if isn't already.
- int_19h 4y ago
  The concern is stuff like this: https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/12/islamist-students-try-to-disrupt-ex-muslim-maryam-namazies-talk-on-blasphemy-at-goldsmiths-university https://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2015/12/islamist-students...
pessimizer 4y ago
Islam: famous left-wing religion. Christianity: notoriously tolerant of minorities, supportive of the equality of women, and gay friendly.
- distant_hat 4y ago
  Thank you for providing an excellent example of how this support works.
- darkwraithcov 4y ago
  I mean, you can distort/twist an ostensibly peaceful religion like Christianity into something insidious and outright evil. A lot of atrocities have been committed by devout and pious leaders who claimed to follow a deity/prophet with a peaceful/loving message, so it's unsurprising that it's still a feature of modern religions. There was a point in time where the Islamic world was a world leader in math, science, and technology. Of course, like with anything, time and money corrupts all things. Oil especially taints everything it touches.
darkwraithcov 4y ago
The "left," is a truly nebulous concept if you observe leftist discourse online, where circular firing squads are writ large. I think you are conflating the left's support for minority groups who are demonized and targeted by society for support of the tenets of their respective religions. After 9/11, Muslims were a significant target of hatred and violence. The left, which again is not a monolithic entity, doesn't support islam anymore than it supports judaism or any other religion, it supports people who happen to follow that religion. It's based around humanist tendencies, which the right often doesn't understand. You can hate aspects of a religion while also being against any dehumanization and hatred against people who follow said religion. Like the other 2 major Abrahamic religions, Islam has some good and some bad tenets. At least in the US, there are some extremely conservative muslims and some - perhaps shockingly - liberal muslims. Being that they are such a small percentage of the US population, there is a lot of misunderstanding and stereotyping of people who follow Islam.
- unshavedyak 4y ago
  > .. it supports people who happen to follow that religion. It's based around humanist tendencies, which the right often doesn't understand. You can hate aspects of a religion while also being against any dehumanization and hatred against people who follow said religion. I quite agree with this statement in the context of what i believe. Which is to say i tend to dislike religions and personally i dislike Islam more than most (based on what i observe), but above all i don't want to target people, Muslim or otherwise, based on their religion. I think this also supports a sister comment i made where i describe being unsure what my stance is relative to Islam. Observationally it doesn't seem "good" to me, but its people are also target of a lot of hate in this country (USA). It makes it difficult to discuss objective qualities of a religion without it bleeding into racism or bigotry against those who practice said religion.
  - darkwraithcov 4y ago
    It makes sense if you are an informed, educated person, that organized religion isn't a palatable thing. But neither is our society's obsession with money, and I'd argue many of the problems we have with religions come down to how money and power is wielded, not a few sentences in a very old book. I also find a lot of what conservative christian evangelicals believe to be indistinguishable from wahhabist islam. They seem to hate each other for reasons other than what they actually believe.
veec_cas_tant 4y ago
I'm a person that isn't active on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc. so I don't see the crazy fringe stuff (usually). For what it's worth, it doesn't seem that the mainstream left (or Democrats, or whatever the term I'm looking for is) really supports or opposes religion in general. They seem to support the person in a "Muslim people are not bad or dangerous" way but don't address the religion. I do see the mainstream right (again, don't know the correct term) support Christianity and oppose both Muslims and Islam itself. I'm not trying to give an opinion, just stating what I see as a person who doesn't interact with the online political sphere at all.

hersko 4y ago

Jews on college campuses [1] and jews in the black lives matter movement [2] come to mind. [1] https://www.frc.org/antisemitism https://www.frc.org/antisemitism [2] https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/black-lives-matters-jewish-problem-in-their-own-words/ https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/black-lives-matters-jewish-p...

unshavedyak 4y ago
That's definitely an interesting one. Not shared in my group, nor would i understand what "the left" would have against Jews, especially in a religious context. They seem rather innocuous when compared to the more vocal and physical religions. Do you honestly believe most left leaning individuals have something against the Jews?
- Jensson 4y ago
  > Do you honestly believe most left leaning individuals have something against the Jews? Antisemitism is more common among left wingers than right wingers, so yes. Or alternatively you could say "do you honestly believe most right leaving individuals have something against X" for so many topics, X could be black people etc. Right wingers are more likely to be against those things, but it isn't like all of them are evil, similarly there is more Jew hate among left wingers, but it isn't like most of them hate Jews either. Most Jew hate today has to do with Israel, right wing is mostly pro Istrael, so most Jew hate comes from the left.
  - unshavedyak 4y ago
    That's interesting. I can understand being reasonably anti-Israel, but i'm suspicious that many people take the leap from being anti-Israel to being anti-Jew. Especially when you consider how many people of both the Jewish faith and/or ethnicity live within the United States. Tbh it feels like a straw man, but we're speculating anyway, so i can't fault you for it. I appreciate the discussion nonetheless. I'll definitely be curious to talk to people i know (when politics comes up) to see their thoughts on Jews and Islam (as a different commenter pointed out). I suspect that no one i know will be anti-Jew or radically pro-Islam. Appreciate the points of discussion/anecdotes. I can't say i agree with them, but they were certainly a surprise. Far from what i expected.

smrtinsert 4y ago

You've entered a bad faith argument by accepting the premise as a given. These political threads seem to be full them.