11 ms·

I don't know why left wing groups would celebrate. Other than the conservative category, most of the descriptors he used were inborn traits like being straight,

I don't know why left wing groups would celebrate. Other than the conservative category, most of the descriptors he used were inborn traits like being straight, being white, being a man, or immutable attributes like being from a particular country. (And honestly, being conservative may be one of those traits too, but it's less obviously true). I know it's common to look at the most unhinged people on Twitter and say all leftists are like that, but I really do think most left leaning people would say that it isn't a good outcome for it to be biased in this way.

Miner49er 4y ago
I'm a leftist and fail to see the problem with this. Context matters. If a slave kills their master, would you say that crime is immoral? Generally punching up is considered less hateful or immoral, and I don't see why that is bad.
- habitue 4y ago
  There's a little slight of hand you're doing here. Not getting into whether murder is ok, I definitely think there's a difference between a slaveowner and a white person. A white person can't stop being white, and they didn't choose to be white. A slaveowner is committing a violation of another human's rights. It's a thing they could have chosen not to do, and it's a thing they can choose to stop doing any time. I don't personally think "punching up is ok" is a valid viewpoint. But even if I did, I don't think white people are "up" or men are "up" in the way that the proponents of punching up consider rich people, or oppressors to be. Skin color isn't oppression. Gender isn't oppression. Oppression is oppression.
  - Miner49er 4y ago
    The concept of race is a tool of oppression. As a society, we can decide to do away with the idea of race. We choose to allow the system to continue to exist, the same way a slaveowner chooses to continue to be a slaveowner. Economically, white people and men are clearly advantaged, and money is probably the purest form of power there is.
    - account42 4y ago
      > The concept of race is a tool of oppression. As a society, we can decide to do away with the idea of race. We can, but present day leftism is doing pretty much the opposite. You can't have race quotas without pushing race. Talking about "white priviledge" is enshrining the idea that your race defines who you are.
    - habitue 4y ago
      Money isn't the purest form of power, physical force is the purest form of power. Second to that is probably the threat of physical force, then probably the threat of inprisonment, etc. Money is powerful, no doubt though. I agree we could decide to drop the idea of race. It would be really nice. Humans are always forming out-group hatreds, but it would be very nice if we could not consider another race the out-group. I don't think it's just as simple as just deciding to do away with the idea of race, any more than we could just decide to do away with the idea of money or like, the legitimacy of the court system. Sure, it's a social fiction, but it's self-reinforcing, which means it's hard to coordinate to get rid of.
- turbokatsu20 4y ago
  I would say taking somebodies life simply because of their position of dominance over you as immoral, yes.
  - veec_cas_tant 4y ago
    I believe your view is an extremely unpopular opinion. If a kidnapping victim killed their kidnapper, I don't believe anyone would advocate for their punishment.
    - turbokatsu20 4y ago
      If you are forced to work because you're broke and owe money, is that slavery? Do you get to kill the people who subjugated you?
psychphysic 4y ago
Because two wrongs make a right is almost becoming a campaign slogan of some "left" causes. As a liberal my views haven't changed much over the past decade but the ground has definitely fallen away from me. I used to be liberal, but then they changed what liberal was, now what I am isn't liberal and what is liberal seems weird and scary to me. It'll happen to you... - Abe Simpson
- snapcaster 4y ago
  Holding static views is a sign of stagnation right? has nothing in the world changed over the past decade? nothing to re-evaluate anything?
  - francisofascii 4y ago
    Foundational principles that have been debated and continually established since civilization began should stay mostly static. Policies may change, but not the principles.
- slg 4y ago
  >As a liberal my views haven't changed much over the past decade but the ground has definitely fallen away from me. Well yes, because liberalism is about "progress" while conservatism is about "traditional values". Liberalism is constantly evolving while conservatism is not. It is more extreme to fight for trans rights than it is to fight for gay rights than it is to fight for women's rights. If you magically transported a liberal from a decade ago to today, they will inherently be viewed as more conservative. Obama didn't support gay marriage until 2012. Very few liberal politicians today would be against gay marriage. Your views not changing means your views are becoming more conservative because they are falling behind the "progress" that liberals are always pushing towards. And also it is worth noting that according to Pew "[Congressional] Republicans have moved further to the right than [Congressional] Democrats have to the left"[1] [1] - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/03/10/the-polarization-in-todays-congress-has-roots-that-go-back-decades/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/03/10/the-polariz...
  - 4y ago
unshavedyak 4y ago
Yea, as a quite left leaning person i'd be curious to hear how i or anyone i know (who is on the left) marginalizes a group of people. The worst i can think of is wanting more equal rights for religious groups rather than special treatment of the primary group (in the USA) - which is seen as an attack by much of the right. Likewise i am concerned by the strong emphasis of rural over urban with respect to voting power and representation. Though i have no easy answer here, so i'm pretty unopinionated - just concerned. I'd be really curious where i and the folks i know and discuss with marginalize other groups; as i want to correct that, if we do. Obviously no one here can answer that with specificity to my beliefs but.. my curiosity exists nonetheless heh.
- distant_hat 4y ago
  The left's support for Islam directly marginalizes minorities within Islamic countries as well as women and gays fighting for their rights there.
  - unshavedyak 4y ago
    I'm kinda of undecided on Islam, fwiw. A bit above my pay grade, as i'm rather unsure how we objectively classify religion. There's plenty of Christian sects in the US that actively fight against gay rights/etc here too (though obviously to a far lesser degree in the common case), so it feels like we need some way to classify specific doctrine. With my own lack of doctrine classification i am unsure how to view them. So i tend not to take a stance on it, just like i don't with Christianity. I'm not sure what support you think the left commonly believes in for Islam. Everyone i know is not a fan of most religions, Christianity included. I view self rights far more important, and many religions or denominations directly challenge that. Do you believe most leftists are campaigning for Islamic support? This has not been my experience.
    - jdmtheNth 4y ago
      Successor ideology is fast becoming a religion, if isn't already.
    - 4y ago
zug_zug 4y ago
Yeah, I'd guess HN is a pretty 50/50 split left/right. I don't expect to see anybody on this post championing this result as the ideal state. So if your image of left is "twitter left" maybe reconsider recalibrating it to "half of hn."
- orangecat 4y ago
  Yeah, I'd guess HN is a pretty 50/50 split left/right. Maybe on economics (I'd say closer to 2/3 left), but on social issues it's overwhelmingly left. What percentage are anti-abortion, for example? The main split seems to be between old-style liberals who support free speech as a fundamental principle and progressives who believe that speech should often be restricted in order to protect marginalized groups.
  - jeoqn 4y ago
    There are mainstream conservative points of view that posted here get flagged by users and sometimes even by dang himself (you can see it was him when the comment tree automatically collapses, only he can do that)
    - dang 4y ago
      No, comments with enough user flags get automatically collapsed as well.
  - veec_cas_tant 4y ago
    I see abortion as a topic where the left/right split hasn't caught up to the populace. Recent US elections seem to support that [1]: "Five statewide ballot measures all came out in favor of abortion rights, even in red states like Kentucky and Montana. That's on top of an August win for abortion rights supporters on a Kansas ballot measure." Maybe a worldwide left/right split is more inline with abortion, however I don't know anything about that. Looking at HN, I see a bigger divide on topics such as Cloudflare discontinuing services for Kiwi Farms. I tend to see vigorous discussion that seems civil and then a handful of comments that are "strong" in tone. I really don't see anything as overwhelmingly left in general. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/11/25/1139040227/abortion-midterm-elections-2022-republicans-democrats-roe-dobbs https://www.npr.org/2022/11/25/1139040227/abortion-midterm-e...
nhchris 4y ago
[flagged]
- habitue 4y ago
  I'm not pretending anything. I think this is a straightforward issue for people on the left: human rights means equal rights. Whether some nutjobs have forgotten that doesn't detract from the basic principle.
MrStonedOne 4y ago
[dead]

Miner49er 4y ago

I'm a leftist and fail to see the problem with this. Context matters. If a slave kills their master, would you say that crime is immoral? Generally punching up is considered less hateful or immoral, and I don't see why that is bad.

habitue 4y ago
There's a little slight of hand you're doing here. Not getting into whether murder is ok, I definitely think there's a difference between a slaveowner and a white person. A white person can't stop being white, and they didn't choose to be white. A slaveowner is committing a violation of another human's rights. It's a thing they could have chosen not to do, and it's a thing they can choose to stop doing any time. I don't personally think "punching up is ok" is a valid viewpoint. But even if I did, I don't think white people are "up" or men are "up" in the way that the proponents of punching up consider rich people, or oppressors to be. Skin color isn't oppression. Gender isn't oppression. Oppression is oppression.
- Miner49er 4y ago
  The concept of race is a tool of oppression. As a society, we can decide to do away with the idea of race. We choose to allow the system to continue to exist, the same way a slaveowner chooses to continue to be a slaveowner. Economically, white people and men are clearly advantaged, and money is probably the purest form of power there is.
  - account42 4y ago
    > The concept of race is a tool of oppression. As a society, we can decide to do away with the idea of race. We can, but present day leftism is doing pretty much the opposite. You can't have race quotas without pushing race. Talking about "white priviledge" is enshrining the idea that your race defines who you are.
  - habitue 4y ago
    Money isn't the purest form of power, physical force is the purest form of power. Second to that is probably the threat of physical force, then probably the threat of inprisonment, etc. Money is powerful, no doubt though. I agree we could decide to drop the idea of race. It would be really nice. Humans are always forming out-group hatreds, but it would be very nice if we could not consider another race the out-group. I don't think it's just as simple as just deciding to do away with the idea of race, any more than we could just decide to do away with the idea of money or like, the legitimacy of the court system. Sure, it's a social fiction, but it's self-reinforcing, which means it's hard to coordinate to get rid of.
turbokatsu20 4y ago
I would say taking somebodies life simply because of their position of dominance over you as immoral, yes.
- veec_cas_tant 4y ago
  I believe your view is an extremely unpopular opinion. If a kidnapping victim killed their kidnapper, I don't believe anyone would advocate for their punishment.
  - turbokatsu20 4y ago
    If you are forced to work because you're broke and owe money, is that slavery? Do you get to kill the people who subjugated you?

psychphysic 4y ago

Because two wrongs make a right is almost becoming a campaign slogan of some "left" causes. As a liberal my views haven't changed much over the past decade but the ground has definitely fallen away from me. I used to be liberal, but then they changed what liberal was, now what I am isn't liberal and what is liberal seems weird and scary to me. It'll happen to you... - Abe Simpson

snapcaster 4y ago
Holding static views is a sign of stagnation right? has nothing in the world changed over the past decade? nothing to re-evaluate anything?
- francisofascii 4y ago
  Foundational principles that have been debated and continually established since civilization began should stay mostly static. Policies may change, but not the principles.
slg 4y ago
>As a liberal my views haven't changed much over the past decade but the ground has definitely fallen away from me. Well yes, because liberalism is about "progress" while conservatism is about "traditional values". Liberalism is constantly evolving while conservatism is not. It is more extreme to fight for trans rights than it is to fight for gay rights than it is to fight for women's rights. If you magically transported a liberal from a decade ago to today, they will inherently be viewed as more conservative. Obama didn't support gay marriage until 2012. Very few liberal politicians today would be against gay marriage. Your views not changing means your views are becoming more conservative because they are falling behind the "progress" that liberals are always pushing towards. And also it is worth noting that according to Pew "[Congressional] Republicans have moved further to the right than [Congressional] Democrats have to the left"[1] [1] - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/03/10/the-polarization-in-todays-congress-has-roots-that-go-back-decades/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/03/10/the-polariz...
- 4y ago

unshavedyak 4y ago

Yea, as a quite left leaning person i'd be curious to hear how i or anyone i know (who is on the left) marginalizes a group of people. The worst i can think of is wanting more equal rights for religious groups rather than special treatment of the primary group (in the USA) - which is seen as an attack by much of the right. Likewise i am concerned by the strong emphasis of rural over urban with respect to voting power and representation. Though i have no easy answer here, so i'm pretty unopinionated - just concerned. I'd be really curious where i and the folks i know and discuss with marginalize other groups; as i want to correct that, if we do. Obviously no one here can answer that with specificity to my beliefs but.. my curiosity exists nonetheless heh.

distant_hat 4y ago
The left's support for Islam directly marginalizes minorities within Islamic countries as well as women and gays fighting for their rights there.
- unshavedyak 4y ago
  I'm kinda of undecided on Islam, fwiw. A bit above my pay grade, as i'm rather unsure how we objectively classify religion. There's plenty of Christian sects in the US that actively fight against gay rights/etc here too (though obviously to a far lesser degree in the common case), so it feels like we need some way to classify specific doctrine. With my own lack of doctrine classification i am unsure how to view them. So i tend not to take a stance on it, just like i don't with Christianity. I'm not sure what support you think the left commonly believes in for Islam. Everyone i know is not a fan of most religions, Christianity included. I view self rights far more important, and many religions or denominations directly challenge that. Do you believe most leftists are campaigning for Islamic support? This has not been my experience.
  - jdmtheNth 4y ago
    Successor ideology is fast becoming a religion, if isn't already.
  - 4y ago

zug_zug 4y ago

Yeah, I'd guess HN is a pretty 50/50 split left/right. I don't expect to see anybody on this post championing this result as the ideal state. So if your image of left is "twitter left" maybe reconsider recalibrating it to "half of hn."

orangecat 4y ago
Yeah, I'd guess HN is a pretty 50/50 split left/right. Maybe on economics (I'd say closer to 2/3 left), but on social issues it's overwhelmingly left. What percentage are anti-abortion, for example? The main split seems to be between old-style liberals who support free speech as a fundamental principle and progressives who believe that speech should often be restricted in order to protect marginalized groups.
- jeoqn 4y ago
  There are mainstream conservative points of view that posted here get flagged by users and sometimes even by dang himself (you can see it was him when the comment tree automatically collapses, only he can do that)
  - dang 4y ago
    No, comments with enough user flags get automatically collapsed as well.
- veec_cas_tant 4y ago
  I see abortion as a topic where the left/right split hasn't caught up to the populace. Recent US elections seem to support that [1]: "Five statewide ballot measures all came out in favor of abortion rights, even in red states like Kentucky and Montana. That's on top of an August win for abortion rights supporters on a Kansas ballot measure." Maybe a worldwide left/right split is more inline with abortion, however I don't know anything about that. Looking at HN, I see a bigger divide on topics such as Cloudflare discontinuing services for Kiwi Farms. I tend to see vigorous discussion that seems civil and then a handful of comments that are "strong" in tone. I really don't see anything as overwhelmingly left in general. [1] https://www.npr.org/2022/11/25/1139040227/abortion-midterm-elections-2022-republicans-democrats-roe-dobbs https://www.npr.org/2022/11/25/1139040227/abortion-midterm-e...

nhchris 4y ago

[flagged]

habitue 4y ago
I'm not pretending anything. I think this is a straightforward issue for people on the left: human rights means equal rights. Whether some nutjobs have forgotten that doesn't detract from the basic principle.

MrStonedOne 4y ago

[dead]