5 ms·

> divide ~$4m (post-tax) by team of 2 for ~20 years So about $100k per year, per person (after taxes) I know that this is nothing out in Silicon Valley, but f

> divide ~$4m (post-tax) by team of 2 for ~20 years So about $100k per year, per person (after taxes) I know that this is nothing out in Silicon Valley, but for reference, the median income in the US is $19k (net) per year, and about $15k (net) per year in Europe (if you include eastern Europe). I can't tell from your comment whether you feel 100k is high (hence the "optimistic") or low (hence the warning at the end).

axus 4y ago
They've also been receiving donations since early on. Last time I checked they were up to 100k per year, but it started much smaller. I donated $20 back in the days when they'd send back an ASCII art scene in email or crayon drawing.
- bombcar 4y ago
  And those early numbers are Tarn only with Zach still having a "real job" (Tarn quit his teaching job relatively early on).
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    I believe he had a research post doc
davedx 4y ago
> the median income in the US is $19k (net) per year It's way higher, between $50-70k https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-276.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-27...
- rtkwe 4y ago
  You're looking at the median HOUSEHOLD income. So on average the wages of two people, median income is a bit below half of that at 31k (pre tax I think).
  - omni 4y ago
    If you look at Table C-1 in parent's source, it has median post-tax household income at 65K which is a much more reasonable number. We're incredibly wealthy, a per-person median income of 19K doesn't pass the sniff test. Keep in mind taxes are much lower at the lower end of the income spectrum as well. If you're married and making the median income, your overall federal tax rate is only going to be about 15%.
    - sgerenser 4y ago
      If you’re married and making the median household income, your overall federal tax rate will likely be significantly lower than 15%. You’ll be in the 15% bracket, but roughly half your income would be taxed at 0%.
      - omni 4y ago
        There is no 15% bracket, I was mentally averaging between 12% and 22% https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-brackets https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-...
enkid 4y ago
Where are you getting $19k per year as the median income?
- CydeWeys 4y ago
  They said median net income, i.e. post-tax.
  - selectodude 4y ago
    Which is also super wrong because median income for full time employees is $54,000
    - CydeWeys 4y ago
      Many people are not employed though (or are children). I wonder if this figure is for every single person. Or it could just be wrong.
  - ch4s3 4y ago
    As others pointed out, that just can’t possibly be correct given the median pre-tax number and actual US tax rates. If you made the median individual income of $45k and lived in a high tax state like California, your net would be ~$37k.
HEmanZ 4y ago
So much depends on how you measure it. But median individual income in the US is quite a bit higher than 19k no matter how you measure it. Real, adjusted, individual including non working and part-time population above 15yo: $38k/yr Including only full-time workers: $57k Median household income: $71k The US has enough problems, no need to make up much smaller income numbers than the reality. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/
- account42 4y ago
  Pretty sure GP is talking about net income.
  - HEmanZ 4y ago
    Does it seem at all realistic that someone at the median is paying 50% income tax in the US?
  - PragmaticPulp 4y ago
    That would require greater than 50% taxation, which isn’t realistic at all in the United States. The federal income tax rates for lower income brackets reach 0%. State, sales, payroll, and other taxes aren’t going to come anywhere near 50%. The real, net, median income in the United States is significantly higher than what the OP quoted.
    - sempron64 4y ago
      The top federal income tax bracket is 37% and the top California tax bracket is 12.2%. This is for income exceeding 500k. So disregarding local taxes and property taxes, in California most of this income would be taxed at 49.2%.
      - azernik 4y ago
        This is a subthread about the median income that we would compare the $7M payout to, not the $7M payout itself. It certainly falsifies the graph paulluuk linked to, and using high CA taxes on the Bay 12 payout only further undermines paulluuk's comparison.
sam0x17 4y ago
Imagine how much they could have made by now if they had launched on steam 10 years ago
- bombcar 4y ago
  Potentially less; the game may have a large amount of "support purchases" but could end up with a relatively slow tail afterwards.
PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> I know that this is nothing out in Silicon Valley, but for reference, the median income in the US is $19k (net) per year, and about $15k (net) per year in Europe (if you include eastern Europe). Your (net) number in the US is way too low. The real (aka inflation adjusted) median earnings for US workers is around $42K before taxes. Tax rates at the lower end of the income spectrum in the US are very low. Federal income tax is effectively 0% for the bottom income brackets, though they’ll have to pay some payroll taxes, state taxes, sales taxes, and others along the way. Even considering that, there’s no way to go from the >$40K median earnings to your $19K net income figure.
paulluuk 4y ago
I quickly grabbed the numbers from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_..., where I just copied the number from the "W-2 Median Wages" graph, however I have no idea what W-2 is so that might explain why so many people are saying I'm wrong. Also I used "real wages" which seems to be corrected for inflation rather than the actual numbers.
vkou 4y ago
They were only making 12k per month in the last few years. For a long time, it was closer to 2-4k a month.
adventured 4y ago
> the median income in the US is $19k (net) per year, and about $15k (net) per year in Europe That's off by close to half. The median income in the US is around $37,000 [1], the median full-time income is around $53,000 [2] and the median US household income is up over $70,000 [3]. It's also worth noting that those median incomes are paying low tax rates on that income (typically ~15%-20% including federal + state + local + fica, depending on the location). [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N [2] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm [3] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

axus 4y ago

They've also been receiving donations since early on. Last time I checked they were up to 100k per year, but it started much smaller. I donated $20 back in the days when they'd send back an ASCII art scene in email or crayon drawing.

bombcar 4y ago
And those early numbers are Tarn only with Zach still having a "real job" (Tarn quit his teaching job relatively early on).
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  I believe he had a research post doc

davedx 4y ago

> the median income in the US is $19k (net) per year It's way higher, between $50-70k https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-276.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p60-27...

rtkwe 4y ago
You're looking at the median HOUSEHOLD income. So on average the wages of two people, median income is a bit below half of that at 31k (pre tax I think).
- omni 4y ago
  If you look at Table C-1 in parent's source, it has median post-tax household income at 65K which is a much more reasonable number. We're incredibly wealthy, a per-person median income of 19K doesn't pass the sniff test. Keep in mind taxes are much lower at the lower end of the income spectrum as well. If you're married and making the median income, your overall federal tax rate is only going to be about 15%.
  - sgerenser 4y ago
    If you’re married and making the median household income, your overall federal tax rate will likely be significantly lower than 15%. You’ll be in the 15% bracket, but roughly half your income would be taxed at 0%.
    - omni 4y ago
      There is no 15% bracket, I was mentally averaging between 12% and 22% https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-brackets https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/taxes/federal-income-tax-...

enkid 4y ago

Where are you getting $19k per year as the median income?

CydeWeys 4y ago
They said median net income, i.e. post-tax.
- selectodude 4y ago
  Which is also super wrong because median income for full time employees is $54,000
  - CydeWeys 4y ago
    Many people are not employed though (or are children). I wonder if this figure is for every single person. Or it could just be wrong.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  As others pointed out, that just can’t possibly be correct given the median pre-tax number and actual US tax rates. If you made the median individual income of $45k and lived in a high tax state like California, your net would be ~$37k.

HEmanZ 4y ago

So much depends on how you measure it. But median individual income in the US is quite a bit higher than 19k no matter how you measure it. Real, adjusted, individual including non working and part-time population above 15yo: $38k/yr Including only full-time workers: $57k Median household income: $71k The US has enough problems, no need to make up much smaller income numbers than the reality. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/ https://fred.stlouisfed.org/

account42 4y ago
Pretty sure GP is talking about net income.
- HEmanZ 4y ago
  Does it seem at all realistic that someone at the median is paying 50% income tax in the US?
- PragmaticPulp 4y ago
  That would require greater than 50% taxation, which isn’t realistic at all in the United States. The federal income tax rates for lower income brackets reach 0%. State, sales, payroll, and other taxes aren’t going to come anywhere near 50%. The real, net, median income in the United States is significantly higher than what the OP quoted.
  - sempron64 4y ago
    The top federal income tax bracket is 37% and the top California tax bracket is 12.2%. This is for income exceeding 500k. So disregarding local taxes and property taxes, in California most of this income would be taxed at 49.2%.
    - azernik 4y ago
      This is a subthread about the median income that we would compare the $7M payout to, not the $7M payout itself. It certainly falsifies the graph paulluuk linked to, and using high CA taxes on the Bay 12 payout only further undermines paulluuk's comparison.

sam0x17 4y ago

Imagine how much they could have made by now if they had launched on steam 10 years ago

bombcar 4y ago
Potentially less; the game may have a large amount of "support purchases" but could end up with a relatively slow tail afterwards.

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> I know that this is nothing out in Silicon Valley, but for reference, the median income in the US is $19k (net) per year, and about $15k (net) per year in Europe (if you include eastern Europe). Your (net) number in the US is way too low. The real (aka inflation adjusted) median earnings for US workers is around $42K before taxes. Tax rates at the lower end of the income spectrum in the US are very low. Federal income tax is effectively 0% for the bottom income brackets, though they’ll have to pay some payroll taxes, state taxes, sales taxes, and others along the way. Even considering that, there’s no way to go from the >$40K median earnings to your $19K net income figure.

paulluuk 4y ago

I quickly grabbed the numbers from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_..., where I just copied the number from the "W-2 Median Wages" graph, however I have no idea what W-2 is so that might explain why so many people are saying I'm wrong. Also I used "real wages" which seems to be corrected for inflation rather than the actual numbers.

vkou 4y ago

They were only making 12k per month in the last few years. For a long time, it was closer to 2-4k a month.

adventured 4y ago

> the median income in the US is $19k (net) per year, and about $15k (net) per year in Europe That's off by close to half. The median income in the US is around $37,000 [1], the median full-time income is around $53,000 [2] and the median US household income is up over $70,000 [3]. It's also worth noting that those median incomes are paying low tax rates on that income (typically ~15%-20% including federal + state + local + fica, depending on the location). [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N [2] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/wkyeng.t01.htm [3] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N