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…and? Of course everybody does whatever they can get away with.

by jeoqn 4y ago

seydor 4y ago
Then we should all be able to get away with it right? Can't say there is no problem here
radarsat1 4y ago
Interesting perspective. So in your view, no person or company with integrity exists? And no one lacking it should be called out?
- aulin 4y ago
  integrity in capitalism only exists if some soverreign entity enforces or if it's the more profitable path (e.g. to avoid PR scandals)
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    "in capitalism"... What about integrity in socialism, communism, fascism, confusianism, feodalism and all the others? In other words drop the silly "in capitalism", it is as vapid as the old-style "in Soviet Russia" reversals.
    - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
      As a person who lived in both I can tell you in communism it's far worse, at least as far as personal integrity is concerned. In capitalism, maximum I can lose for speaking up is my job. In communism, as in all authoritarian/totalitarian regimes, it was - and still is - normal for people to lose their freedom or even life. So as much as I hate corporate bullshit, their power grab, lobbying politicians etc., I would still prefer to live in a "capitalist" rather than a "communist" country.
      - themitigating 4y ago
        Communism and authoritarian is the key. It's not the economic system that's the problem.
        the_third_wave 4y ago
        Tell me then, how do you enforce the essence of a communist economic system, this being communal ownership of the means of production, without an authority to tell Mr. Smartpants who just invented a better mousetrap that he has to give it to the commune instead of producing it himself? Nope, Communism is more than just an economic system. It is an ideology which strives to create a "better man" who can create a "better society" where human "vices" like greed and avarice no longer play a role. In this it closely resembles religious orders which strive to create the same through other means. Capitalism is 'just an economic system' which can be implemented in many ways ranging from laissez-faire libertarian-style capitalism to state capitalism as practised in China. It does not come with the large ideological baggage Communism carries since it doesn't need to - leave people to their own devices and they'll end up doing something resembling a form of capitalism at a large scale while practising something resembling communism at a small - family and neighbourhood - scale. This model works fine since there is no ideological drive to force out the small-scale 'communism' in families and neighbourhoods whereas a communist society needs to do away with the large-scale capitalism. Communism and authoritarianism are indelibly linked.
      - Karellen 4y ago
        > In communism, as in all authoritarian/totalitarian regimes, WTF? Communism is an economic model, not a leadership selection model. Communism is diametrically opposed to capitalism, not to democracy. (It always baffles me when a communist authoritarian dictatorship enriches wealthy plutocrats while the workers starve, it's always the communism part that gets blamed, never the authoritarian dictatorship. But when a capitalist authoritarian dictatorship enriches wealthy plutocrats while the workers starve, it's never the capitalism that gets blamed. No, then it's the authoritarian dictatorship that's the problem. How about, just maybe, it's dictators and wealthy plutocrats that are the biggest problem for the working class?)
    - thaumasiotes 4y ago
      > as vapid as the old-style "in Soviet Russia" reversals. The genre never made any sense, but the original joke was quite good. In Soviet Russia, television watch you!
      - type0 4y ago
        > In Soviet Russia, television watch you! You joke, but some smart TVs with cameras and microphone do indeed that if they have certain malware. This applies even more widely for baby monitors and some other "smart tech for home". What was once a wet dream of Soviet leaders is a reality in our capitalist world, just wait untill it will be mandated by the government that you can't cover the camera with tape and rip out the mic. "You will own nothing and will be happy". https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-stop-smart-tvs-from-snooping-on-you https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-stop-smart-tvs-from-snoo...
    - aulin 4y ago
      Sorry, I'm late. It was not a criticism of capitalism and it's way different than the other authoritarisms you cite. The point here is that market forces have no integrity, they seek maximum profit. The only way to limit this is to impose some regulation with a sovereign entity that's not driven by profit alone.
- jeoqn 4y ago
  We shouldn’t be surprised by lack of integrity. This is not news.
  - Veen 4y ago
    Lack of integrity in general is not news, but it is valuable to know about specific examples. Not least because it undermines Facebook’s PR fluff.
    - jeoqn 4y ago
      [flagged]
  - fleddr 4y ago
    We should be. This fatalism is exactly the problem. You see poor behavior, slap the label "business" on it, and all of a sudden it is expected, accepted and even defended.
  - wlll 4y ago
    I imagine that inventing a lack of integrity for people is a great way of justifying terrible behaviour. "No-one else has integrity so I'm justified by also not doing so". It doesn't even have to be true as long as you believe it.
  - JohnFen 4y ago
    That it isn't surprising doesn't mean we shouldn't call it out.
- noizejoy 4y ago
  > no person or company with integrity exists? … probably not in the most powerful x percent.
- Dalewyn 4y ago
  A person with integrity is either a saint or a liar. A company with integrity has an amazing marketing department.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- Karellen 4y ago
  It might be worth considering GPs comment as a case of projection, rather than a claim about the world to be rebutted. After all, they are part of the "everyone" they talk about. And the "everyone else is just as bad as I am, really" (also commonly phrased "we are not so different, you and I") is a classic asshole refrain. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
  - drstewart 4y ago
    People who call others assholes are generally assholes themselves. So, should we believe what you just told us about yourself?
    - Karellen 4y ago
      Absolutely.
timeon 4y ago
We do not need to downplay the hypocrisy even if it was obvious.
tukantje 4y ago
...and? Your point? Putting it to spotlight is an effort to make sure they can't get away with it. Even in a scenario where you say "of course they do it", jumping to the conclusion of "we should not report on it" is ridiculous.
JohnFen 4y ago
Not nearly everyone. Plenty of people follow ethical codes.

…and? Of course everybody does whatever they can get away with.

by jeoqn 4y ago

…and? Of course everybody does whatever they can get away with.

seydor 4y ago

Then we should all be able to get away with it right? Can't say there is no problem here

radarsat1 4y ago

Interesting perspective. So in your view, no person or company with integrity exists? And no one lacking it should be called out?

aulin 4y ago
integrity in capitalism only exists if some soverreign entity enforces or if it's the more profitable path (e.g. to avoid PR scandals)
- the_third_wave 4y ago
  "in capitalism"... What about integrity in socialism, communism, fascism, confusianism, feodalism and all the others? In other words drop the silly "in capitalism", it is as vapid as the old-style "in Soviet Russia" reversals.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
    As a person who lived in both I can tell you in communism it's far worse, at least as far as personal integrity is concerned. In capitalism, maximum I can lose for speaking up is my job. In communism, as in all authoritarian/totalitarian regimes, it was - and still is - normal for people to lose their freedom or even life. So as much as I hate corporate bullshit, their power grab, lobbying politicians etc., I would still prefer to live in a "capitalist" rather than a "communist" country.
    - themitigating 4y ago
      Communism and authoritarian is the key. It's not the economic system that's the problem.
      - the_third_wave 4y ago
        Tell me then, how do you enforce the essence of a communist economic system, this being communal ownership of the means of production, without an authority to tell Mr. Smartpants who just invented a better mousetrap that he has to give it to the commune instead of producing it himself? Nope, Communism is more than just an economic system. It is an ideology which strives to create a "better man" who can create a "better society" where human "vices" like greed and avarice no longer play a role. In this it closely resembles religious orders which strive to create the same through other means. Capitalism is 'just an economic system' which can be implemented in many ways ranging from laissez-faire libertarian-style capitalism to state capitalism as practised in China. It does not come with the large ideological baggage Communism carries since it doesn't need to - leave people to their own devices and they'll end up doing something resembling a form of capitalism at a large scale while practising something resembling communism at a small - family and neighbourhood - scale. This model works fine since there is no ideological drive to force out the small-scale 'communism' in families and neighbourhoods whereas a communist society needs to do away with the large-scale capitalism. Communism and authoritarianism are indelibly linked.
    - Karellen 4y ago
      > In communism, as in all authoritarian/totalitarian regimes, WTF? Communism is an economic model, not a leadership selection model. Communism is diametrically opposed to capitalism, not to democracy. (It always baffles me when a communist authoritarian dictatorship enriches wealthy plutocrats while the workers starve, it's always the communism part that gets blamed, never the authoritarian dictatorship. But when a capitalist authoritarian dictatorship enriches wealthy plutocrats while the workers starve, it's never the capitalism that gets blamed. No, then it's the authoritarian dictatorship that's the problem. How about, just maybe, it's dictators and wealthy plutocrats that are the biggest problem for the working class?)
  - thaumasiotes 4y ago
    > as vapid as the old-style "in Soviet Russia" reversals. The genre never made any sense, but the original joke was quite good. In Soviet Russia, television watch you!
    - type0 4y ago
      > In Soviet Russia, television watch you! You joke, but some smart TVs with cameras and microphone do indeed that if they have certain malware. This applies even more widely for baby monitors and some other "smart tech for home". What was once a wet dream of Soviet leaders is a reality in our capitalist world, just wait untill it will be mandated by the government that you can't cover the camera with tape and rip out the mic. "You will own nothing and will be happy". https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-stop-smart-tvs-from-snooping-on-you https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-stop-smart-tvs-from-snoo...
  - aulin 4y ago
    Sorry, I'm late. It was not a criticism of capitalism and it's way different than the other authoritarisms you cite. The point here is that market forces have no integrity, they seek maximum profit. The only way to limit this is to impose some regulation with a sovereign entity that's not driven by profit alone.
jeoqn 4y ago
We shouldn’t be surprised by lack of integrity. This is not news.
- Veen 4y ago
  Lack of integrity in general is not news, but it is valuable to know about specific examples. Not least because it undermines Facebook’s PR fluff.
  - jeoqn 4y ago
    [flagged]
- fleddr 4y ago
  We should be. This fatalism is exactly the problem. You see poor behavior, slap the label "business" on it, and all of a sudden it is expected, accepted and even defended.
- wlll 4y ago
  I imagine that inventing a lack of integrity for people is a great way of justifying terrible behaviour. "No-one else has integrity so I'm justified by also not doing so". It doesn't even have to be true as long as you believe it.
- JohnFen 4y ago
  That it isn't surprising doesn't mean we shouldn't call it out.
noizejoy 4y ago
> no person or company with integrity exists? … probably not in the most powerful x percent.
Dalewyn 4y ago
A person with integrity is either a saint or a liar. A company with integrity has an amazing marketing department.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Karellen 4y ago
It might be worth considering GPs comment as a case of projection, rather than a claim about the world to be rebutted. After all, they are part of the "everyone" they talk about. And the "everyone else is just as bad as I am, really" (also commonly phrased "we are not so different, you and I") is a classic asshole refrain. When someone tells you who they are, believe them.
- drstewart 4y ago
  People who call others assholes are generally assholes themselves. So, should we believe what you just told us about yourself?
  - Karellen 4y ago
    Absolutely.

timeon 4y ago

We do not need to downplay the hypocrisy even if it was obvious.

tukantje 4y ago

...and? Your point? Putting it to spotlight is an effort to make sure they can't get away with it. Even in a scenario where you say "of course they do it", jumping to the conclusion of "we should not report on it" is ridiculous.

JohnFen 4y ago

Not nearly everyone. Plenty of people follow ethical codes.